"Right to Refuse Service" but not to Gays?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I hope your own proclivities are as boring as one might be led to believe by such a hardline stance, or you too might some day run afoul of a majority that would like to reclassify you out of serious consideration on the grounds that you are inherently different because of some defect.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Where does that leave you, ChesterJ?

Or weren't you "attracted" to both genders that you were having sex with, at some point?

There are folks who believe that left-handedness is a sin or a defect as well.

There's even research that says that people who hold fundamentalist religious beliefs are mentally disabled. (Kathleen Taylor, The Brain Supremacy, et. al.)

Same sex attraction is a fact. It is usually exhibited from the beginning of sexual interest/awareness in adolescence. When sexual activities/love and affection/building a life together are experienced between consenting adults ... where is the harm to society?

No reason to categorize a naturally-occurring-non-harmful-to-anyone characteristic as defective or disabled.

a reply to: Annee

Hi Annee. I thought I would stop by and explain my broad brush stroke comment there.
(Sorry to hear about your mother, my mother to is sick, I do my best to take care of her and others in my local area.)

That comment was to broad I get that, and made other posts ^^^^ to make it clear where my stance was.

I should have been more clear. That was for people who live in big cities, with lots of options. I realize now that my comment was half cocked, and I was pandering to the other side of things.
When clearly, a person should have the right to shop where they want to shop regardless of skin color, sexual preference, or health conditions.

I remember now why gay activists are where they are today.. I really blocked it out.. All the weeks I had spent in mental wards, under the command of my father to "fix" me. He also thought I was a born freak, and when they "fixed" me upon birth, they also tried to mentally "fix" me. By pumping meds into me. Forcing me into bible camps, shock treatment. All for being who I am. Even being born the way I was, there was still something wrong that needed fixed... Ugh. I remember now.. and tried SO hard to block that part of my life out.. I come in here, and now the tears are starting to fall again.. Old wounds TORN right back open.. I SHOULD have NEVER played that hand to such a vile base.. But its part of who I am, and part of my healing to forgive. But it is NOT easy to do. and Thanks to Chester, I remember why..

We have always seen eye to in the past, sorry if my comment there struck a cord.
I give you my whole hearted apology. I should have been wiser with my words.. Hence the term.. Only human, and when you try to please everyone, you are doomed to fail.
I try my best hon, I really do. I will be more mindful of my words in the future, to take into account of all the others and those in small towns with no other options.
When my true feelings are expressed ^^^^^^ .
I was being to broad with my statement.
And I am sure that comment is going to make me look like an idiot.
When we have all at one point made missteps online at some point.. well here was mine!

*Puts on dunce cap, and sits in the corner for an hour!

wow a whole page filled up while I wrote this, my other thoughts are 2 pages back Annee

Either you cannot refuse service to anybody, or you can choose to refuse to anybody. ANYTHING else is extremely hypocritical and goes against the very idea of freedom and equality. If some groups are protected, and others not, that isn't equal. Any actions or rules set in place by government MUST be totally fair and equal. Applying them to some groups, and not to others, is preferential treatment and should be abolished.

I'll stand behind, support, and defend any gay/lesbian/bisexual and their right to live their life free from danger, not a single person should fear for their safety because of their sexual preference. But past that things get a lot more complicated.

Nobody, in my opinion, has a natural RIGHT to shop at a certain store, nobody has a right to demand somebody else bake them a wedding cake. Nobody has a right not to feel uncomfortable or has a right to not be offended. These are not rights. These are conveniences and comforts.

So when it comes to a battle between one persons "right" to shop at a store, vs another persons right to conduct their business they way they see fit, I'm going to support the person conducting their business. If it was gays not allowing straight people I'd feel exactly the same way.

Personally I feel that refusing to serve someone for being gay is despicable, but that's the cost of a free society, not everybody is going to act in ways that you find neat and positive.

Your rights to do what you want in your life end the second you are forcing someone else to do something. I will never, ever, EVER support the right of a person to go around forcing others to do things against their will. That's the bottom line as I see it.

Some issues need to be addressed with societal pressure, others with legal pressure. Legal pressure should not be involved to restore people's conveniences and comforts, only to secure their rights, and your rights end the second you try and force someone to do something against their will. The store owner seeks control of their own store, the customer is seeking control of that store too, which they have absolutely no right to IMHO.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

Personally I think those who are attracted to the same sex have something wrong in their hard wiring (brain) and therefor are mentally disabled.

Therefore their rights are already upheld under one of the other classifications of race, gender, handicap, religion and age.

Your the same people who had me locked into mental wards in my youth, and tried to Fix me.(Early 80's)
You just opened an old deep wound.
Sickening . And part of the problem.
I was trying to show a level of empathy to those who don't agree, but now I am reminded WHY we start pushing back against your base. I sometimes block it out, and forget what VILE and hurtful people are out there.

I was thankful to the Daily show to bring this to light a few months ago. I love those guys!

They made deep scars in my life, and they do not, and WILL never go away.
It was like giving a C section to a woman who was not pregnant. Its pointless, but leaves a BIG SCAR!

Ugh. really bothersome, and there ARE lots like you. Like my father and his racist friends. Who would come home, and call me a queer, and kick my ass, to MAN me up! Oh IT needed it... Being called IT, and other choice names, just brings back some old wounds.. I think I might step away from this thread, AFTER I speak my peace.. You got this one coming.

People like you where the ones who made the CHOICE for me, before I even had the chance to know where I was going to fit in.
You know absolutely nothing.
And you need to read a book, or do some homework. WHAT about those born with both genders? HUH? Did you ever take that into account?

Glad you made your stance so clear.
I will admit, very honest. But still, you and others have deeply hurt me. And what have I EVER done to any of you...

The kinds of bullies that made me run in the past. Threatened my life, and beat on me.

Do you even realize where your line of thinking takes us.. and DOES to other living people. DO you have NO empathy?
Or are you just in closet. and repress your own very essence? I wonder now.

As everyone I have ever come across with that view. Like my dad was a closet case, and the DANGEROUS kind!

You are 100% WRONG. If I was mentally disabled, why do I not get a check for it. Your line of thinking is from the 80's. Sadly still lives and breathes here today.
I hold a job, and worked all my life.. Ive even had bosses like you, who fired my ass for being me, they got away with it too, as I am to passive to stand up for myself.. Now you just woke up a sleeping giant, and I will speak my mind on here, and I will stick up for all those who you attack with such tripe.
There is NO empirical data that supports your "personal" feelings. NONE, just all Right wing BS.
More BS, and its time I start climbing that BULLshi#T mountain to educate you, and show you, that you are not only wrong, but you are HURTING people.

I was a fool to "pander" to your base.. Makes me sick to my stomach that I even tried. But I will never stop showing empathy for those in this world, not even you Chester. I feel bad for you, and pity you in all truth. That you go through this life, with those feelings pushing ignorance and misunderstanding. Even in light of your personal feelings.

Why is LOVE a sickness?
I think maybe you should spend a few weeks in a mental ward, and have all these horrible things done to you.. Then you might change your tune.
Yet at the same time, as I cool off here.. We asked to call you out.. You stepped up. And made it clear. We asked for you to come and speak your mind.. You did.. so I can not totally freak out, I have known you are out there, I just tried my best to say, "no people over all are understanding and have love in their hearts." I was a fool to be so naive.

Let me share something I wrote on another website that I can not name here.. But this is what happened to me.

My father had me put into a mental ward. They told me what I was sick, and I had major issues that needed "fixing". So they dosed me up on something, I still do not know what it was.. but it was horrible. I was young at the time. they hooked my private parts up to a shocking machine. And every time they showed me an image of a "gay" they would shocking the living # out of me. That went on for days, until I started to become numb.. The next set of "therapy" was to pray the gay away.. I was forced into bible study, and was told over and over again I was going to burn in hell for my sins. As a young kid, it had an affect upon me. it really scared me. . AS they induced fear into me for being who I was. The last session was taking # and putting it into a bottle, and they would have me wear that bottle around my neck. The put a cork in the bottle. And anytime I had "gay" urges. I was made to smell my own #... I was later released.. with deep scars, and an inner hate for these so called doctors......

Thankfully my mother came to her senses and got me away from him, and those "doctors".
All because I was born with a "deformity". Which I wrote about on another.. But NO way am I sharing that here. I do not need people like you coming in there and being a bully and pushing your "personal" feelings upon.

And they wonder why we start to push back.. I stepped back, and tried to show empathy to those who did this stuff to me. But when it gets brought up, it hurts.
And takes into account, how we are NOT treated as equals. but as "sick" people. Or disabled. Total non sense. Absolute non sense.
And in ending, this is all very relevant to this discussion, as people being treated as equals. Not being treated like sick animals who need help. We DO NOT need mental help. What we need are EQUAL rights!

So often, in our discussions, we generalize the complexity of the world down to either one of two options.

Understandable, but when that simplification is pushed too far it becomes the fallacy of false dichotomy.

Only in certain rare situations or from very limited perspectives is either one of two options absolutely right or wrong or correct or incorrect.

Even in a free society (a purely theoretical concept) or a free market (another purely theoretical concept) there are limitations upon and balances between the rights of individuals and the society-at-large.

There has never been nor will there ever be some kind of perfectly equitable human system that satisfies every ideology.

However, we're not talking about any of that.

We're talking about specific cases with specific people under the laws of specific states.

There are whole volumes of law that limit what a business owner can do with their business.

The fact that this specific case, serving "gays and lesbians," rankles so hard is a function of our current times.

Further, just because a man is perceived to be "acting gay" or a woman is perceived to be "acting butch" ... who is to say that carries over to the bedroom? Why should they be restricted from public service?

Businesses don't exist in a vacuum in 99.9% of the cases. Their customers take public roads, they use public utilities, etc.

Thus the public actually DOES have an interest as is clearly evidenced by centuries of common and case law.

originally posted by: zysin5
But even I have noticed sometimes the gay activists can be slightly extreme in pushing. I had to step out of my local group for that reason. Yet I totally understand why. We have been pushed around, run off, bullied most our lives. Then you get where we are now.. Where we start pushing back, and then those very same people scream, discrimination! Gay agenda! blah blah..

Love and understanding to you, I did read your follow-up posts. Sounds like you've had quite the growing up, out, upside down, all around and back again life "adventure" ---- and you're just beginning.

Believe in yourself. Pick friends that believe in you. Family/neighbors/acquaintances can be overrated -- you owe them nothing.

Please understand I post in a very straight forward limited word style only to make a point. Don't take offense.

---------------------------

Extreme is a very broad brush. What's extreme to one is not extreme to another.

I'm sure NOM does not consider themselves extreme, yet they are on the SPLC's official hate list. Not because they are anti-gay, but because they promote lies --- such as allowing gays equality paves the way for Pedophiles and animal abuse. They also use fetishes as an example of immoral gay behavior.

Do you stand up to these twisted minds with a "hug and a handshake". I doubt they'd let you get that close.

It's sad and unfortunate that a movement for civil equality does need leaders of all persuasions, including extremists, radical, peacemakers, legals, everyday individuals, etc.

I'm of the passive persuasion myself (unless backed into a corner). I'm not comfortable with aggressive people either ---- but they are needed.

a reply to: Annee

None taken Thanks for the reply.. I get it now.. as the wounds of old, just got ripped open here..
Some folks do not get it.
I have seen the extreme sides to this. on both ends. Lived it.

Some folks just do not understand where their rules and status quo stuff leads us, and how much pain it can bring to us.
They will never understand, as they only see it from their point of view.
So I let it ALL out, to maybe shed some light on our side. My side.

Thanks again Annee.. You make great points. Aggressive people are needed.. And I just went from passive to aggressive.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

We're talking about specific cases with specific people under the laws of specific states

Yes. My personal experience was discrimination of the disabled. The disability act was not passed until 1990. My mom had polio in 1951. That's almost 40 years of discrimination.

Most people would be shocked at how many times we were not allowed in or asked to leave restaurants, hotels, and other service businesses. We were either a danger to ourselves or we made other customers uncomfortable.

Anti-discrimination of LGBT needs to be all encompassing and Federal.

a reply to: Annee

I'm sorry you and your mom went through that for so long.

I find it sad that every few years we have to spell out in no uncertain terms what is against the law when we all are so easily aware of what bigotry and discrimination is.

As much as I hate to say it ... the Golden Rule applies: Act toward others as you would like them to act toward you.

a reply to: lonweld

No one has the right to discriminate based on sexual orientation. Business is licensed to operate under the laws of the United States, and the people say it is no longer acceptable to discriminate in this way anymore. Business are not being told they must serve gays and lesbians, they being told they can't refuse service based on that premise. There is a subtle distinction and bigots and gay bashers seem to lack the intelligence to understand the difference.

originally posted by: th3dudeabides
a reply to: lonweld

No one has the right to discriminate based on sexual orientation. Business is licensed to operate under the laws of the United States, and the people say it is no longer acceptable to discriminate in this way anymore. Business are not being told they must serve gays and lesbians, they being told they can't refuse service based on that premise. There is a subtle distinction and bigots and gay bashers seem to lack the intelligence to understand the difference.

I think you nailed it