"Right to Refuse Service" but not to Gays?

Recently a New York Based company got fined for refusing to do business with a lesbian couple:

The Giffords later claimed that it was their “right” to refuse service to Erwin and McCarthy. But in fact, their actions were plainly illegal. New York state law bars places of public accommodation from discriminating based on sexual orientation—and the Giffords were quite honest about their reasons for turning away Erwin and McCarthy. As a result, the Giffords must pay a $10,000 fine for violating the law, plus $1,500 to both Erwin and McCarthy for “mental pain and suffering.”

www.slate.com...

Here is the full ruling on the issue:
www.capitalnewyork.com...

Does the state have the power to step in and tell you that you MUST service a person? Does a business have the RIGHT to refuse anyone? Will this pave the way for more lawsuits toward businesses that refuse services to poeople that don't have a tie, people tht don't make enough money, or people that have too many tattoos? There are moral and legal implications in this, much more then meets the eye. What do you think ATS?

yes, the state does have that power...look it up...hint...it was a supreme court case years ago....

a reply to: lonweld

This is complete BS! Law or not, if you own a business there should be nobody, government included, that can tell you who you HAVE to serve!

If a business doesn't want to serve gays, that should be their power to do so...How can government who you pay taxes to and that funds their salary, tell you who to serve? WE ARE THEIR BOSS, not the other way around...But it appears people just fall into the same trap, I would fight it...Who cares if you win, just on principal.

originally posted by: lonweld
Will this pave the way for more lawsuits toward businesses that refuse services to poeople that don't have a tie

Nope. A business can put in place a dress code.

people tht don't make enough money

How would they know?

or people that have too many tattoos?

No legal basis.

There are moral and legal implications in this, much more then meets the eye. What do you think ATS?

Yes there are. When a business refuses service due to color, sexual orientation and such it is then a "hate crime". THAT IS ILLEGAL.

a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Because the government represent the people. Government is the boss. Its called democracy.

Politically incorrect thoughts have now been deemed hate crimes by the government.

It is the way it is in the United States of America

There is no more true freedom of speech or even freedom of thought

Welcome to the new more tolerant, more inclusive world of the progressives/liberals/and socialists

We live in a Republic not a Democracy....

The government is constantly overstepping bounds.

If people do not support a cause, they should not have to participate. Period.

People are such pansies. It hurt my feelings! It caused me mental anguish! Mer-Mer-Herp-E-Dur!!! Life isn't fair. People get their feelings hurt all the time. I suppose we should start suing our children's playground enemies because they called them a booger face, or refused to play with them.

Guess what - sexual preference is raw emotion. Just because I don't like the idea of a man sleeping with another man, or a woman with a woman doesn't make me a bigot. It just means I find it nasty. The same way I find the concept of rolling around in dog crap nasty.
If there was a group of people, which I'm sure there is, that enjoyed rolling around in dog crap, should I be forced to join or participate?

No - because I don't agree with it.

It doesn't mean I find you as a person disgusting or nasty, just a certain action you do. I enjoy eating sushi - others find it nasty. Should they be forced to watch me eat it until they are comfortable with it?

I wonder how those in power would react if Neo-Nazi's, or the KKK demanded service. It's the same concept. But, I bet things would go different.

originally posted by: ispyed
a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Because the government represent the people. Government is the boss. Its called democracy.

Represent...Sure

Micromanage business...Nope

What I do with my business is MY BUSINESS! There should be nobody saying who I can or can't serve, no matter what industry you are in....Shouldn't matter the reason either, if you decide not to serve someone, it is your business and your money you are losing out on.

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle
I wonder how those in power would react if Neo-Nazi's, or the KKK demanded service. It's the same concept. But, I bet things would go different.

You're equating Gays with fascists and bigots?

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle
I wonder how those in power would react if Neo-Nazi's, or the KKK demanded service. It's the same concept. But, I bet things would go different.

You're equating Gays with fascists and bigots?

See - I knew someone would try that crap. That's what it is crap.

No, it's an analogy. Something they teach in grade school.

You know this full well - you are just trying to smear a very valid point to further your ideals that are also bias.

This is a typical liberal tactic - if you cannot defeat a message, smear the messenger.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: lonweld
Will this pave the way for more lawsuits toward businesses that refuse services to poeople that don't have a tie

Nope. A business can put in place a dress code.

people tht don't make enough money

How would they know?

or people that have too many tattoos?

No legal basis.

There are moral and legal implications in this, much more then meets the eye. What do you think ATS?

Yes there are. When a business refuses service due to color, sexual orientation and such it is then a "hate crime". THAT IS ILLEGAL.

Except there are no hate crimes statutes in the US. Here, "hate crimes" are usually addition to a charge that is already a crime, such as assault, rape, murder--not a crime in and of itself.


What you mean to say is that it violates discrimination laws, and yes, I think they are not only unconstitutional but unequally enforced.

originally posted by: intrepid
You're equating Gays with fascists and bigots?

Fascist bigoted gays are being fascist bigots.

There are plenty of gays who don't agree with what's being done in their "name" in the same way there are many Americans who don't agree with who's being bombed in their "name".

a reply to: lonweld

Let's ignore right and left for a second.

The real question here is.

Can a business deny a customer service outright for being a born certain way or having a certain belief?

I've been in family business and I've never turned anyone away unless they were being disruptive in my store.

I'm hispanic. And I've had a guy tell me that he was a former KKK member. And I still helped him.

If I can help a former clansman. I'm sure they can help the lgbt community.

And btw.

It's nice to be important. But it's more important to be nice.

a reply to: MentorsRiddle

I asked a question, didn't smear anyone. And you've deduced I'm a "liberal". Hmm, who's smearing? Now if I was a smaller man I would point out that this would be the victim card along with an unsubstantiated attack, which I might say is a typical right wing ploy. But I'm much bigger than that.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: lonweld

Let's ignore right and left for a second.

The real question here is.

Can a business deny a customer service outright for being a born certain way or having a certain belief?

I've been in family business and I've never turned anyone away unless they were being disruptive in my store.

I'm hispanic. And I've had a guy tell me that he was a former KKK member. And I still helped him.

If I can help a former clansman. I'm sure they can help the lgbt community.

And btw.

It's nice to be important. But it's more important to be nice.

A business should be able to just as a customer should be free to not give his custom to a business he does not like. Freedom of association. In a truly free society, sometimes we have to understand that jerks exist and they should be free to be jerks.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: lonweld

Let's ignore right and left for a second.

The real question here is.

Can a business deny a customer service outright for being a born certain way or having a certain belief?

I've been in family business and I've never turned anyone away unless they were being disruptive in my store.

I'm hispanic. And I've had a guy tell me that he was a former KKK member. And I still helped him.

If I can help a former clansman. I'm sure they can help the lgbt community.

And btw.

It's nice to be important. But it's more important to be nice.

But that was your choice.

If you didn't want to serve them that is your choice too.

If you don't want to serve straight people that is your choice.

If you don't want to serve religious people that is your choice.

No body of government should ever tell you what you can and cannot do. Do say they can is to invite the government into every facet of our lives. it sets a dangerous precedence.

We aren't racist or bigots. We just want government to stay the hell out of our lives.

originally posted by: MentorsRiddle

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: lonweld

Let's ignore right and left for a second.

The real question here is.

Can a business deny a customer service outright for being a born certain way or having a certain belief?

I've been in family business and I've never turned anyone away unless they were being disruptive in my store.

I'm hispanic. And I've had a guy tell me that he was a former KKK member. And I still helped him.

If I can help a former clansman. I'm sure they can help the lgbt community.

And btw.

It's nice to be important. But it's more important to be nice.

But that was your choice.

If you didn't want to serve them that is your choice too.

If you don't want to serve straight people that is your choice.

If you don't want to serve religious people that is your choice.

No body of government should ever tell you what you can and cannot do. Do say they can is to invite the government into every facet of our lives. it sets a dangerous precedence.

See, you are actually thinking the situation through. When we empower the state to use it's coercive power to force others whom we do not to do things they don't want to do, then we empower the state to force us to do things we do not like or want to do ourselves. Support of this sort of thing is very short sighted, IMHO.

originally posted by: grey580
Can a business deny a customer service outright for being a born certain way or having a certain belief?

Their choice. They risk losing business over their beliefs. Their risk.

originally posted by: grey580
I've been in family business and I've never turned anyone away unless they were being disruptive in my store.

Your choice.

What if the state doesn't think they are being disruptive and they run to the state to force you to serve them? What if in fact their disruptiveness is a protest against something about you they feel is an injustice and they are trying to raise awareness?

When you start using the people with guns that don't have jobs unless they have someone to point a gun at to solve your problems... you invite in an entire host of nightmares that love to follow and leech off those people with guns.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: ispyed
a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Because the government represent the people. Government is the boss. Its called democracy.

Represent...Sure

Micromanage business...Nope

What I do with my business is MY BUSINESS! There should be nobody saying who I can or can't serve, no matter what industry you are in....Shouldn't matter the reason either, if you decide not to serve someone, it is your business and your money you are losing out on.

no it's not...go read the supreme court ruling...by the way, having a business comes with all kinds of government restraints, as well as laws and regulations....if you serve bad food that kills my wife, and there is no law against that, I'm coming back to your business with a gun, and you won't have to worry about owning a business any longer...geez, use some common sense
go live in Somalia....there's absolutely no government there, you are on your own to set up any business you want.

originally posted by: jimmyx
no it's not...go read the supreme court ruling...

Because we all know the Supreme Court represents the well being of the people.

Run to Daddy and Mommy because someone was mean. Then one day Daddy and Mommy are upset with you and you find out what that belt you wished on others feels like.

There is a difference between being assaulted, enslaved, stolen from, etc. and being told "No thanks, please shop elsewhere".