Muslims must stop ISIS/ISIL or have eternal stain on Islam like the Christians from the Crusades

page: 1
10
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join

posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 11:52 AM
link   
PLEASE DO NOT use this thread to bash Christianity or Islam.

I am trying here to make the point that good, kind, loving Muslims are the only ones who can stop ISIS/ISIL, and they have the responsibility to do so.

My question is – will the good, kind, loving Muslims actually DO something rather than just talk about it. Will Saudi Arabia have the courage to actually intervene? Will all the Muslim governments take the truly righteous way and intervene rather than expecting non Muslim countries and non Muslims to do it for them?

Now to my OP

These are from another thread I have been on:

I wrote this to a Christian on another thread:
Did you start this thread just to provoke people against Christians? It sure looks like it. Trust me people don't need any more provoking - I was in a thread for 3 days where people said things like all Christians are a blight on the earth
I tried to say that bashing Christians leads to people like ISIS/ISIL thinking they are doing the world a favor by cutting little children whose parents are Christian in half or slowly slitting their necks while alive You have just contributed, I think on purpose, to the idea that christians are evil
For several days on that very long thread not one Christian basher would say that what ISIS/ISIL was doing was wrong, eventually after much badgering one poster said, “I give up already, it is wrong”, but just to get me to shut up ….You my friend are not a Christian, or you would not have publicly made such a downright evil statement …..

Anyone who thinks that anyone else deserves to to be killed or suffer (in this world or the next) ONLY because of their religion (there are many many good people of all faiths) (the Muslim children ISIS/ISIL kills and display on facebook because they are a different sect is EVIL incarnate) is the incarnation of the ultimate evil. You my friend are as responsible for these deaths in ME as ISIS/ISIL twist words said on the internet (and they do use/abuse the internet) as justification for what they do.

When will the good, loving, kind, Muslims speak up and stop this horror? It is only they and they alone who can stop this. My heart cries out to them. This "great genocide of Islam" will stain Muslims as the Crusades stained Christians for eternity. I sob, I cry

Everyone stop the insanity of the grossest kind of evil of bashing people simply because they hold a religious belief you do not. Even if you are a non-believer, an atheist, an agnostic Have you no heart?



On the same thread DarknStormy wrote:
ISIS/ISIL/IS - whatever they are called now are the product of a Satanic cult which is running rampant in the Western world and has spread it's influence into the Gulf States in the Middle East. They have nothing to do with the teachings of Mohammad and Islam or Christianity. This is a war against both.


I replied to DarknStormy:

You are correct, however, they are a sect of Islam,
they claim to be doing the will of Allah, they claim to be following Muhammad. In all their rantings they hail Allah and Muhammad and call for Shariah.

I suppose the Inquisition carried out by the Catholic church (a sect of Christianity) which tortured and killed people for being the the wrong kind of Christian or an unbeliever, is a better comparison to ISIS/ISIL than the Crusades

This will put a stain on the good,loving, kind Muslims as deep and as lasting as the Crusades and Inquisition did for Christians.

This also puts a stain on all Christians who are so unkind to their neighbor (like Westboro B. Church, abortion clinic bombers, etc.) as to incite the kind of hatred for Christians we see regularly on ATS, which helps to justify in the minds of ISIS what they are doing. Believe me they utilize the internet quite widely.

It will also put an eternal stain on all Muslims who do not actively try and stop ISIS. Just saying: "ISIS/ISIL don't represent Islam or who we are, their thoughts and actions are evil" - will work as well for eternity as the Christians who said the same about the Crusades and the Inquisition.

It is my opinion that: Only the good, kind, loving Muslims have the true power to stop ISIS/ISIL because it is the name of Allah and Muhammad and Islam, who are being drug through the mud by these evil people. It is the responsibility of all the Islamic governments to intervene swiftly.



edit on 11Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:54:36 -0500am81808amk181 by grandmakdw because: fixed title to fit space shown on ATS
edit on 12Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:04:14 -0500pm81808pmk181 by grandmakdw because: little addition
edit on 12Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:10:14 -0500pm81808pmk181 by grandmakdw because: make it more readable
edit on 12Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:26:10 -0500pm81808pmk181 by grandmakdw because: clarity and grammar




posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 12:00 PM
link   
a reply to: grandmakdw

Before any of you point it out.

I have been guilty in the past of speaking ill of Muslim treatment of women, etc.

However, I admit I was wrong to do so.

This whole tragedy of ISIS/ISIL has opened my eyes to the great evil that happens
when people bash others because of their faith.

I am sorry for what I have said that hurt others in the past. You are under no obligation to forgive me. I just must say it.

This is not a - can't we all get along thread.

This is a - the evil perpetrated by ISIS/ISIL must be stopped
Christian nations, or any non-Muslim country who intervenes will only be seen as infidels by ISIS/ISIL and will have only the power to incite them further and further justify the killing of innocents who simply hold religious views (Christian and Muslim) different from those of ISIS/ISIL.

edit on 12Mon, 18 Aug 2014 12:24:53 -0500pm81808pmk181 by grandmakdw because: clarify



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 12:28 PM
link   
They are. The kurds have been fighting tooth and nail against this sort of thing for decades, and have been the only group in Iraq to actively contest the advance of ISIS while also providing refuge to Yazidi people. The kurds are predominantly muslim, but have protected minorities of many different religious beliefs, including Christians. They are a good example of what Islam should be, and have been fearless in their battle against extremism.

As much as I get frustrated with the religion of Islam at times, it's clear there are good people that are muslims. Not all of them are butchers like the insane sub-humans that form ISIS/IS.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 12:31 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
They are. The kurds have been fighting tooth and nail against this sort of thing for decades, and have been the only group in Iraq to actively contest the advance of ISIS while also providing refuge to Yazidi people. The kurds are predominantly muslim, but have protected minorities of many different religious beliefs, including Christians. They are a good example of what Islam should be, and have been fearless in their battle against extremism.

As much as I get frustrated with the religion of Islam at times, it's clear there are good people that are muslims. Not all of them are butchers like the insane sub-humans that form ISIS/IS.


Thank you.

Do you also think that the Islamic governments in the region have a responsibility before Allah to intervene?

Do you think that non-Muslims who try and stop them are only making things worse because ISIS views them as part of the great satan and infidels? Leaving the only people who can really stop them the Islamic states? I feel for the kurds they must feel abandoned by the Islamic world.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:02 PM
link   
a reply to: grandmakdw


When will the good, loving, kind, Muslims speak up and stop this horror? It is only they and they alone who can stop this. My heart cries out to them. This "great genocide of Islam" will stain Muslims as the Crusades stained Christians for eternity.

But those good, loving, kind Muslims are being beheaded...


I sob, I cry
So do I, gran.

S/F, btw, sparring partner!
edit on 8/18/2014 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:09 PM
link   
a reply to: grandmakdw


Do you also think that the Islamic governments in the region have a responsibility before Allah to intervene?

This fighting has been going on since the 7th century. Some of those countries, I have the impression at least, DO want to stop them, but haven't the military forces to do it.

As for the barbarians, THEY think that it is their responsibility before Allah to wipe out everyone else, with no regard to humanitarian issues.

Then you get to the money-bags being thrown at these groups who then go "rogue" - and more and more "military might" being sent/stolen.

If that dam at Mosul gets destroyed, it will be the official beginning of WW3 - which I believe started with the Arab Spring back in 2011.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:11 PM
link   
a reply to: grandmakdw

I think I need to quote some verses from the Qu'ran to back up what I said... What must also be remembered is that the word of Allah or God is most high in Islam. So the teachings of Islam come before anything else including Politics.. Most of what I will quote I have already quoted in previous threads also.

Islamic stance towards Christians


"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"



"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).


Islam simply teaches that believing Christians are as righteous as a believing Muslim... There should be no push or threat to kill Christians if they do not convert to Islam. This is an ideology that has come from outside of the Qu'ran.

But with that also, a justification must be found for ISIS in the first place when it comes to the Qu'ran, they proclaim to be fighting for Allah and Mohammad but what does Mohammad say about war?

Rules of war


[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

*2:190 All fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.


Going by these verses ISIS have no justification to do what they are doing through the teachings of the Qu'ran. Everything above is something they have committed against not only the Iraqi people but the people of Syria also. When we can understand these teachings it's very easy to conclude that ISIS are not only a false sect of Islam but a Satanic cult posing as an Islamic movement.

There are many other quotes/verses that also prove that ISIS are just a bunch of thugs who are serving the interests of themselves and nothing more. Another topic that should be brought up is their creation and the influence from outside the Muslim world. Though the Qu'ran explains that Christians and Jews can be righteous, it also touches upon the issue of forming alliances with them.

This is another proof from the Qu'ran that ISIS are not Islamic and the very religion they believe they are following has actually disowned them because of their unrighteous actions.


"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (5:51)"

The things that appeal to me are

- Do not take them as your friends and protectors

- Allah does not guide unjust people.

In the above Noble Verses, the Arabic word for "friends" is "Awliyaa", which has four literal meanings: (1) Allies; (2) Friends; and (3) Guardians. In Noble Verse 60:13, the Arabic word used was "tatawallu", which is derived from the root word "Awliyaa".


This is simply speaking about Christians and Jews who would be considered unrighteous also remembering that the Qu'ran also praises the righteous from these two religions. So who could an unrighteous Christian or Jew be? Well start with the secular system and you will find that it is these people who have armed and weaponized ISIS to commit the atrocities they have in Syria and Iraq.

Because of ISIS simply taking these weapons etc from the West, they are automatically disowned from the Islamic faith. What they have done is against Islam and what they are currently doing in Iraq is not justified through the teachings of Islam.

ISIS are Satanist's who are pretty much eradicating innocent Muslims and Christians who have done nothing to deserve the treatment they are. Along with the above there are many other verses that prove ISIS are not Islamic fighters. Again the only time a Muslim can fight or even launch a war is when they themselves are the victim of aggression or attacked.

And If you want to know where all the other unjust Muslims are, just find any Islamic nation that has military alliances with Western countries. They also fall under the same and this is probably part of the reason why they sit back and do nothing while innocent peoplecontinue to be slaughtered.

Islamic rules of war
Islam and Non-Muslims

Truth will always prevail over falsehood...

Also, the Kurds are a perfect example of what is taught in the Qu'ran. They are attacking the aggressors.
edit on 18-8-2014 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:21 PM
link   
a reply to: DarknStormy

Maybe you answered this and I missed it

But do you think it is only Islamic governments that can stand up and stop this with any legitimacy?

Do you think Islamic governments have the obligation to defend the true faith and step in and not non-muslim nations?



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:24 PM
link   
What can I do as a Muslim to fight the rancid organisation that is the IS...
If I leave England to fight in Jihad I will be deemed a criminal by my governmeant who have deemed it illegal to leave my shores to fight for this cause...

What can Islamic governments do...
Anything Iran does is deemed evil hence the sanctions...
Why would they risk further alienating themselves...

Egypt is comfortable...
Syria is in the midst of a civil war...
Palestine is being decimated...
Pakistan has their own problems along with Afghanistan...


How about Israel...
The only so called democracy in the Middle East???
They have done nothing also...

It's not as easy for Muslims to do anything as much as it pains us...

All we can do right now is pray and wait for Iraqi salvation...
All the while Britain, Russia & China toot their own horn leaving America to pick up the pieces...

It's much more complicated than it seems!!!


Peace grandma!!!
edit on 18-8-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Auto-Correct!!!
edit on 18-8-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Auto-Correct!!!
edit on 18-8-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Auto-Correct!!!



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:26 PM
link   
a reply to: grandmakdw

Most of the Gulf States sponsored this effort in Syria also. Whether they were directly helping ISIS or not is a different question. So yes, they are responsible for trying to clean this mess up if they have any faith about them but from what I'm seeing they are just as bad as ISIS themselves and really area disgrace to Islam also.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these ISIS members were the prisoners on deathrow that were released from Saudi Arabia to fight in Syria. These prisoners were Child Rapists, murderers, you name it. The Saudi's released a monster in Syria and now it may be coming home to roost...
edit on 18-8-2014 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:34 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

The problem is most of the Islamic Governments are actually Western puppets so they are likely being told what they can and cannot do otherwise face the same outcome as Syria, Libya, Iraq etc. Isn't it funny that the only Islamic nation that did put their hand up was Iran, the only current Islamic country that does not have good relations with the Western world while the rest of them sit back speculating what might possibly happen down the track with no response?

Iran are Pro-active, I don't know what the rest are doing..
edit on 18-8-2014 by DarknStormy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:41 PM
link   
a reply to: DarknStormy

It didn't surprise me that Iran stood up to be counted...
But I didn't see much coming from it unless they're directly attacked by the IS!!!


You're right about their governments being puppeteered aswell...

And who's left that we haven't mentioned in the ME... Lebanon...
Their fighters are a "terrorist org" and would never receive the backing if they did come forward...


Peace Dark!!!



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:52 PM
link   
One real problem for the Moslem community is that most people outside of it don't know any Moslems. All they see are people shouting, death to this or that, or men with guns and masks. As the Young Earth Creationists have hijacked the public face of Christianity, so have these types done for Islam. Believe me , most Moslems just want to live their lives in peace, following a religion that represents good things. I am not a terrorist sympathizer, and we do have a right to kill them wherever they are found. But I haven't found the hate that most people see on TV in the Moslems I have met and hung out with.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 02:03 PM
link   
a reply to: grandmakdw I have been shown that the muslim religion was founded in an attempt to show us what we as spirits wanted for ourselves in this life. It was formed from the spiritual side of the battle of flesh and spirit. All the evil that is done in the name is done in order to try and protect the original goals that believers had before they were born. Nothing was out of bounds in order to keep the goals of living a simple life without the influence of others onto the local unit of family and community. It is this very reason that the religion will not ever be able to achieve the origional intent of world domination.

To understand you have to imagine you and your family before you were born and how you made a pact that no matter what earthly influences came about you would do anything to secure that origional group you were with. That includes any information or influences like divorce unholy marriage fornication. the list goes on and on and i think most of you know it better than me. This points to the view of the u.s. being the great satan because of our demoncratic ways of doing whatever we want by way of controling the thought process of the majority and getting them to agree.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 02:53 PM
link   

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
They are. The kurds have been fighting tooth and nail against this sort of thing for decades, and have been the only group in Iraq to actively contest the advance of ISIS while also providing refuge to Yazidi people. The kurds are predominantly muslim, but have protected minorities of many different religious beliefs, including Christians. They are a good example of what Islam should be, and have been fearless in their battle against extremism.

As much as I get frustrated with the religion of Islam at times, it's clear there are good people that are muslims. Not all of them are butchers like the insane sub-humans that form ISIS/IS.


Thank you.

Do you also think that the Islamic governments in the region have a responsibility before Allah to intervene?

Do you think that non-Muslims who try and stop them are only making things worse because ISIS views them as part of the great satan and infidels? Leaving the only people who can really stop them the Islamic states? I feel for the kurds they must feel abandoned by the Islamic world.


You raise some excellent points here. I myself am a Christian, but to my eyes, it would seem the Muslims should be first to step up, yet they either do nothing, or fund these extremist elements. You see the same thing happening with the palestinians, who are often used as a rallying cry by neighboring muslim nations, yet are treated just as poorly (if not more so) by their muslim compatriots.

So where is the muslim world when it comes to ISIS? It could be argued (quite successfully) that the muslims are largely dealing with pockets of this extremism in their own nations that could be blamed on the destabilization of the region by western interference. In some cases we've seen this firsthand where Western powers have helped to overthrow middle eastern strongmen (Gaddaffi and Hussein to name but 2) only to have them be replaced by radical muslim factions.

So should the muslim world rally against ISIS? Absolutely. But is it in a position to do so today? Probably not. Certainly there are some nations which have elements within them that actively support and fund ISIS, but by and large the middle east as a whole is too entrenched in its own localized issues to mobilize cohesively against the threat that has become the Islamic State (to say nothing of the local religious tensions that ebb and flow between sunni and shia across the entire region).
edit on 18-8-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 04:02 PM
link   
I was looking up this question on Al Jazeera to try to get a Moslem view of the ISIS. Very interesting, this group are mainly Sunni and many of the loose alliances with other Sunni groups in Iraq is disappearing as ISIS methods of war are too brutal and barbaric. Also by claiming a caliphate, ISIS are actually challenging many if the current arab states. They are also putting them above Al Quaida- so will be cheesing off Al Quaida - they have claimed to be the one and only true Moslem rulers.

Indeed the PKK and the KDP have joined alliance to work to fight for the kurds against ISIS. This group has very few friends in the Middle East or beyond. I tried to put the link but would recommend on You Tube- Inside Story Caliphate blessing or threat?



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 04:08 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Now wait ... what should Israel do? The minute Israel tried to do anything it would be interpreted by the rest of the world as a move of conquest whether it was or not, and don't think for one minute that Israel doesn't see ISIS as an existential threat to them, too, as much as any other group that's murderously intolerant would be.

But be honest for a second and ask yourself if there would be any power over there willing to accept any move to help on Israel's part as a move made in good faith or simply view it as some subversive attempt to do something nefarious. Like it or not, anti-Israeli media is well entrenched and the distrust would almost certainly be too great, likely on both sides.

No, to me, ISIS is what happens when you feed evil for too long. It eventually starts feeding on you, and if all the powers of the ME and the world don't figure this out quickly, ISIS will become something that will touch all of us with sorrow.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 04:15 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko


Now wait ... what should Israel do? The minute Israel tried to do anything it would be interpreted by the rest of the world as a move of conquest whether it was or not, and don't think for one minute that Israel doesn't see ISIS as an existential threat to them, too, as much as any other group that's murderously intolerant would be.


I've yet to see a strategy that'll be successful against IS...
So I'm not saying Israel should or shouldn't react...
What I was trying to say is that many here and elsewhere see Israel as "the only democracy" in the Middle East...
So they should be more vocal at least...
As with all ME countries & states!!!


Peace ket!!!



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 04:38 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I see.

It's just that there is so much mistrust that I'm not sure what will or would work. I can all too easily see ISIS as a devouring darkness that will swallow the players one by one because even though they all helped feed it in their own way, they can't or won't do what they would have to in order to defeat it - which is to work together and at the very least acknowledge that the enemy of my enemy may sometimes have to be my friend.

And the danger of ISIS is that it appeals to everyone over there who has been taught to hate the other rather than their own leaders for their present condition, and when nothing ever changes, the frustration grows. ISIS shows up as strong and breaking down all the stagnant, frustrating barriers promising real, if brutal change and an actual, tangible outlet for all the pent up rage. That's why I'm afraid it will continue to grow if this al-Baghdadi has any kind of charisma at all.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 05:00 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko

Yeah you have some great points especially the trust barrier...
It could easily backfire if Israel is the first to act...
It'd be refreshing if the new talks at the end of the month involve some sort of unity deal between Palestine & Israel to clear out the trash on both sides...
Then move forward to help the ME...
IS will target Israel not if but when...
& supposedly fired some of the rockets from Gaza...
If they've infiltrated the strip then something needs to be done!!!


Peace ket!!!





top topics
 
10
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join