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Ukraine Refugees Hit by Rockets, Ukraine Blames Rebels

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posted on Aug, 20 2014 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: demus


hundreds of thousands are "few" for you?


The population of eastern Ukraine was 14,530,000 in 2012. According to The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, there are 117,000 "internally displaced" people in Eastern Ukraine, 0.8% of the population. These people are presumably loyal to Kyiv, or at least don't want to live in Russia. According to the same source, 168,000 people have crossed into Russia, or just over 1% of the population. Presumably, this means that 98% of the population is not adversely affected by the military action and are not supportive of the rebels. I am very sorry for any suffering on the part of both pro- and anti- Russian Ukrainians, but it is clear that only a tiny minority support them.


"fleeing like rats"???


This is a common English expression. There is a myth that rats will abandon a ship that is about to sink. It is not an attempt to compare people to rats, but rather a metaphor to describe a "cause" that is a bout to go under.


that is very low of you, I hope you never have to leave your home "fleeing like rat".


Thank you.


that is #ing disgusting thing to say!


Since English is clearly not your first language, I will not take your canard amiss.


edit on 20-8-2014 by DJW001 because: Edit to correct math.




posted on Aug, 20 2014 @ 10:24 PM
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a reply to: midicon

Lets skip the superficial chatter, your missing my point entirely.

Timeline.



On 3 September 2013, at the opening session of the Verkhovna Rada after the summer recess, President Yanukovych urged his parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU criteria and be able to sign the Association Agreement in November 2013.

On 18 September the Ukrainian cabinet unanimously approved the draft association agreement.

On 25 September 2013 Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Volodymyr Rybak stated that he was sure that his parliament would pass all the laws needed to fit the EU criteria for the Association Agreement since, except for the Communist Party of Ukraine, "the Verkhovna Rada has united around these bills".

On 20 November 2013 the EU's Commissioner for Enlargement, Stefan Fuele, stated he expected that the Verkhovna Rada would the next day consider and adopt the remaining bills necessary for the signing of the association agreement, planned for 29 November 2013.

On 26 November 2013 the Ukrainian Government admitted that Russia had asked it to delay signing the EU association agreement and that it "wanted better terms for the EU deal". "As soon as we reach a level that is comfortable for us, when it meets our interests, when we agree on normal terms, then we will be talking about signing," President Yanukovych stated in a televised interview. The same day Russian President Vladimir Putin called for an end to the criticism of the Ukrainian decision to delay the association agreement, and that the EU deal was bad for Russia's security interests. (...) President Yanukovych stated that Ukraine still wanted to sign the Association Agreement but that it needed substantial financial aid to compensate it for the threatened response from Russia, and he proposed starting three-way talks between Russia, Ukraine, and the EU.


So Yanukovych had a choice, the EU or Russia, he chose Russia and the rest is widely known.
Ukrainians wanted the Association agreement with EU, but Russia would have responded if Yanukovych had signed the association agreement.
The other part which contributed to the massive escalation in Ukraine is poverty and enormous corruption.
Euromaidan which started in November lasted for months, first it was pro-EU but from Januari on the protest was anti government.
Eventually it led to the most deadly fights between protesters and government forces on February 18.
After talks with the EU and negotiations with the opposition an agreement was signed which called for new elections and less power to the president.
On Februari 21 he fled to Russia and on Februari 22 security forces received information about radical groups that were arriving in Kharkiv.
Enter the separatists, on Februari 27 unidentified troops widely suspected to be russian commandos seized the building of the supreme counsil of Crimea.
On March 4 Putin claimed he would not consider to annex crimea, only citizens themselves can determine their future through a referendum.
But in the end, it is not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes and how the voting is organized.
In East Ukraine the same happened, buildings were seized and the independence of the Donetsk region was declared at April 7, the independence of the Luhansk region at April 27.
So this is not a question of taking sides, it is how it came about and why people have died and are dying at this very moment in a war which is between Russia and Ukraine.
Couple that with the rhetoric of war to the west and it becomes very threatening.

Next step is Transnistria according to the latest rumours.




edit on 20-8-2014 by earthling42 because: typo



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 12:43 AM
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a reply to: earthling42



Lets skip the superficial chatter, your missing my point entirely.


You didn't make any point...everything you said was the opposite of truth perhaps deliberately so.



Ukrainians wanted the Association agreement with EU, but Russia would have responded if Yanukovych had signed the association agreement.
The other part which contributed to the massive escalation in Ukraine is poverty and enormous corruption.


Let's conveniently forget the 5 billion the USA has been funneling into Ukraine over the past decade. Promoting their own brand of democracy...all for the good of the Ukrainian people of course.



So this is not a question of taking sides, it is how it came about and why people have died and are dying at this very moment in a war which is between Russia and Ukraine.


There is no war between Ukraine and Russia...if there was Ukraine wouldn't last five minutes. Those deaths lie squarely at the feet of the USA...5 billion dollars.



Couple that with the rhetoric of war to the west and it becomes very threatening.


All the rhetoric of war has come from the West not Russia.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:25 AM
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a reply to: midicon

Really care to tell me where this 5 billion went and over how many years it was? I can tell you what it was used for but i bet your clueless. I have an idea why not check where the money came from to clean up Chernobyl you know the mess the Russians left for Ukraine to clean up. So how long was the money spent? What was it used for ? And while your at it why not see how much Russia got as well. Funny but you bought into propaganda hook line and sinker as they say.

edit on 8/21/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 04:36 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Well according to Victoria Nuland Of '# the EU' fame it was spent promoting democracy. Chernobyl must have slipped her mind.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 08:33 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: dragonridr

Well according to Victoria Nuland Of '# the EU' fame it was spent promoting democracy. Chernobyl must have slipped her mind.



So in other words the only evidence you have is a misunderstood quote how sad for you. It amazes me hoe easy some people are to fool with propaganda. They never truly question whats going on around them. Where the money was spent is online in fact there is even a thread on here were it was discussed. Dont believe what RT said go look for yourself.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 08:51 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: dragonridr

Well according to Victoria Nuland Of '# the EU' fame it was spent promoting democracy. Chernobyl must have slipped her mind.



It's called "soft power." If you provide aid and comfort to people, they will like you. This is what Nuland is talking about. If you threaten them, they will hate you. This is what Putin did:


However, Europe's second-largest country by area has already expressed its desire to join the European Union as an associate member instead, and is expected to sign an association agreement with the EU during a summit in Vilnius in November, within its Eastern Partnership programme.

The Kremlin has repeatedly warned Ukraine against the move. "We would somehow have to stand by our market, introduce protectionist measures. We are saying this openly in advance," Putin told a gathering of Russian experts and journalists recently.

Kremlin economic adviser Sergei Glazyev said Russia was "preparing to introduce tougher customs administration in case Ukraine makes the suicidal move of signing the EU association agreement".


Al Jazeera (Anti-Zioist propaganda organ)



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 09:02 AM
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a reply to: DJW001




It's called "soft power." If you provide aid and comfort to people, they will like you. This is what Nuland is talking about. If you threaten them, they will hate you. This is what Putin did:


Soft power...CIA manipulation...funneling cash for deviant purpose...aid that buys corruption...don't forget about democracy training. You couldn't make it up.

I am sure they will grow to hate the EU and it's US compadres.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 09:11 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

I have no interest in rt...I'll leave that to you. What does Nuland have to do with rt?

I was watching a Ron Paul interview, he said the money was used to undermine Ukraine's government. He called it like it is.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 09:18 AM
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a reply to: midicon


Soft power...CIA manipulation...funneling cash for deviant purpose...aid that buys corruption...don't forget about democracy training. You couldn't make it up.


You just did make it up.


I am sure they will grow to hate the EU and it's US compadres.


Let's check back in two years when Ukraine is rolling in natural gas money, like Russia.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: midicon


I was watching a Ron Paul interview, he said the money was used to undermine Ukraine's government. He called it like it is.


I know it's not a popular thing to say around here, but Ron Paul is an idiot.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 10:08 AM
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a reply to: DJW001



I know it's not a popular thing to say around here, but Ron Paul is an idiot.


I was replying to the rt comment. He may be an idiot, I can't say but I would listen to him before you.

The USA really has no business in Ukraine period. There are no bleeding hearts in the US's foreign aid programs in Ukraine. I don't believe that even you believe that. It's nonsense.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: midicon




I was replying to the rt comment. He may be an idiot, I can't say but I would listen to him before you.


Oh my, now that's something I would have kept to myself.




The USA really has no business in Ukraine period. There are no bleeding hearts in the US's foreign aid programs in Ukraine. I don't believe that even you believe that. It's nonsense.


And Russia does?

What gives them that right?



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h




Oh my, now that's something I would have kept to myself


Actually, I'd probably listen to Ron Paul before I listened to anyone on here as well.....



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:48 PM
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a reply to: Flatcoat




Actually, I'd probably listen to Ron Paul before I listened to anyone on here as well.....


Well that's great, but I have to ask...What exactly makes him such a credible source of info if he is an idiot?

Interesting, but I think you just did believe someone on here, as you believe the other poster would rather listen to an idiot.

Crazy how that works isn't it?



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Flatcoat




Actually, I'd probably listen to Ron Paul before I listened to anyone on here as well.....


Well that's great, but I have to ask...What exactly makes him such a credible source of info if he is an idiot?

Interesting, but I think you just did believe someone on here, as you believe the other poster would rather listen to an idiot.

Crazy how that works isn't it?


I probably should have been clearer. I'd listen to him before I 'd listen to you.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:57 PM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: dragonridr

I have no interest in rt...I'll leave that to you. What does Nuland have to do with rt?

I was watching a Ron Paul interview, he said the money was used to undermine Ukraine's government. He called it like it is.



ah and now we know what the problem is. Ron paul has no understanding of foreign issues and regularly was wrong. Main reason he loses every time he Runs gets less than 5 percent of the vote. He just doesnt understand alot and shows it especially in debates. So basically what your telling me is you have to use fringe elements to make a case. Ok i guess some people choose to ignore reality and believe anything as long as it furthers their goals.

Sad really people like you cloud the real issues with smoke and mirrors luckily most people arent that gullible.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 04:29 PM
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originally posted by: Flatcoat

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Flatcoat




Actually, I'd probably listen to Ron Paul before I listened to anyone on here as well.....


Well that's great, but I have to ask...What exactly makes him such a credible source of info if he is an idiot?

Interesting, but I think you just did believe someone on here, as you believe the other poster would rather listen to an idiot.

Crazy how that works isn't it?


I probably should have been clearer. I'd listen to him before I 'd listen to you.


Dont you mean you would listen to him because you downt want to see if your being lied to. See even a small amount of investigation you would see investments in schools housing health programs as was stated the US did indeed put 5 billion in Ukraine. But realize after the collapse of Russia alot of eastern bloc countries needed money. For even basic stuff now money was also spent on promoting democracy as well after all it was under communist rule.

But how much aid had they recieved a year prior to the revolution do you know???? How about 2 years there was one go lpok it up.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: Flatcoat




I'd listen to him before I 'd listen to you.


Wouldn't have it any other way.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 10:15 AM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h



Oh my, now that's something I would have kept to myself.


Why is that?...I haven't called Ron Paul anything. Trying to sound superior just makes you sound inferior.




And Russia does?

What gives them that right?


Russia has much more valid reasons than the US for being involved in Ukraine. You know that very well. In fact the US doesn't have any at all. You would think after their shenanigans in the middle East they would at least have the decency to slink away for time. But no, still out there bold as brass.
edit on 22-8-2014 by midicon because: (no reason given)




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