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Ukraine Refugees Hit by Rockets, Ukraine Blames Rebels

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posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 07:52 AM
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a reply to: midicon


Not quite.


You cannot dispute the facts.


The council in Crimea did not recognise the coup that ousted Yanukovych and the referendum was a direct result of that.


There was no coup. Yanukovych attempted to seize power by overturning the Parliament's resolution. When that failed, he fled. The Parliament was forced to form an interim government. All of the Council members (who did not flee) were legally elected. The Council in Crimea had no constitutional right to hold that referendum, which was forced on them by Russia.


Can you blame them?


No, the Russians were holding a gun to their head.


You know the geo-politics of the area and why Russia is involved. You also know why the USA is involved...enough said.


It is obvious that Russia needs its naval bases in Crimea. It is also obvious that Russia wishes to deprive Ukraine of the offshore natural gas in the Black Sea. Like any mafiya, they strike potential competition hard. Now, would you be so kind as to explain exactly, and in detail, why you believe the United States is involved and what you believe their goals are?




posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 07:56 AM
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originally posted by: DJW001





6. A referendum is hastily held. It does not include "independence" as an option, depriving Ukrainian citizens who wish for an independent Crimean Republic of their rights.


Independence ? from whom exactly ? Do you think Crimea has that option really ? The island cannot sustain itself , regardless they would have to choose . There were two option on the table 1. Join Russia and 2. Choose 1992 Crimean Constitution which "Grants Crimea the right to draft a budget and manage its own property.


7. The vote count totals to over 100%, indicating fraud.


Vote reached 96.7 % . Why exactly is it hard to believe ? I don't say that might be entirely correct but look at the Ethnics groups.

Russians:1,450,000 (58.5%),
Ukrainians: 577,000 (24.0%),
Crimean Tatars: 245,000 (10.2%),
Belarusians: 35,000 (1.4%),
Volga Tatars: 13,500 (0.5%),
Armenians: 10,000 (0.4%),
Jews: 5,500 (0.2%).[38]

Considering how corrupt the Ukrainian government was and how poor the people lived going from bad to worse every year. I would not be surprised out of 24% of Ukrainians most of them to choose a better life.

Even if you take only the Russians vote it is still in favour of Joining Russia.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Donetsk Peoples Republic!!! Russian & Ukrainian!!!
Luhansk Peoples Republic!!! Russian & Ukrainian!!
Donbass Peoples Militia!!! Russian & Ukrainian!!!

Try and deny Ukrainian ethnics involvement all you like...
It's a fact...
Even Ukrainian officials have admitted it...
It's a civil war!!!



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 08:07 AM
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a reply to: DJW001



why you believe the United States is involved and what you believe their goals are?


I know that's a joke question. Hey why not call up Joe Biden's son and ask him?

Same sort of goals as in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria...global dominance in all areas.

The dogs of war have been stirring unrest in Ukraine for a long time...spreading their own version of democracy.

The USA has become a monster. Perhaps it always was but we just couldn't see it before now.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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a reply to: midicon


Same sort of goals as in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria...global dominance in all areas.


In case you have not noticed, the United States has no control over Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria. Try again.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 08:52 AM
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a reply to: DJW001




The vote count totals to over 100%, indicating fraud.


Seriously? This garbage again??



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: DJW001




The vote count totals to over 100%, indicating fraud.


Seriously? This garbage again??


Sorry, you're right:



www.forbes.com... for-annexation/

Only a minority voted to join Russia.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 09:31 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: MrSpad

It's a pity all those non existent Russian soldiers are not around to train them. What do you expect in such a situation...highly trained troops. The rebels are not soldiers just people with weapons...he is saying they are not used to them. But you knew that anyway.

I think they are popular...and they do have local support...they are the local people. It is just easier for people like you to create the idea of division by suggesting otherwise.





I do not have to create division. Because when it comes to the locals and the rebels it is all that has ever existed between them. This is very simple to follow. Most rebels are just people with weapons. Although the rebels claim they have been sending people to Russia for training and that the Russian have been arming them. Something of course Russia denies. So you decide who is lying. Rebels being poorly armed and trained is the norm in most rebellions. However, the key difference between rebels who are able to fight superior forces for decades and those that are crushed quickly is the support of the locals. Of you have it you can fight forever, if you do not you will be quickly dealt with. This is simply a military reality.

Everywhere the rebels have been the locals have rejected them and complianed they are nothing but, drunken thieves. Of course if the locals are interested in rising up you have to recruit the dregs and call them voluteers. And lets face it the Russian military is not exactly know for its training or disipline either. So the Russians can send them all the weapons and volunteers they want but, with no local support they never be able to do anything.

I do not even know how anybody can pretend the rebels in anyway shape or form represent the locals. All the locals do is complain and condem them. The Russian would have been better off just occupying the area like they did Crimea and then pretending they had support by having a vote while under occupation. Granted nobody on the planet thinks that vote was legit but, clearly leaving it up to the locals when they do not support you is not going to work. However, I am sure if Russian troops were in their streets they would know better than to complain.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: DJW001




The vote count totals to over 100%, indicating fraud.


Seriously? This garbage again??


Sorry, you're right:



www.forbes.com... for-annexation/

Only a minority voted to join Russia.


Even Russia admitted it when they analyzed the vote themselves. Oh thought you might want to see this as well.

Crimea wants out of Russian food sanctions
news.yahoo.com...



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: midicon


I think they are popular...and they do have local support...they are the local people. It is just easier for people like you to create the idea of division by suggesting otherwise.


You think wrong:


On 17 August, in the evening, the SMM monitored two rallies in the city centre of Kharkiv, one pro-unity, the other pro-federalism. Around 250 predominantly young people participating in the first event gathered in the centre of Liberty square, holding Ukrainian, Civil Self-Defence and Svoboda party flags. Posters read: ‘We are self-government’; ‘End corruption’; ‘Pay your taxes, serve the country and help our soldiers!’ They collected money for soldiers serving in Donbas as well as for IDPs. Around UAH 15,000 (approximately 860 Euro) was raised, according to organizers. At the same time around 100 supporters of federalism in Ukraine, mainly elderly women, gathered near the Lenin statue and called for peace in Donbas. A cordon of around 50 police separated both groups. Both rallies were non-violent.


www.osce.org...



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 11:47 AM
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Of course Ukraine always blames the Rebels i am still waiting for proof that they destroyed a bunch of Russian aid convoy trucks.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: midicon


Same sort of goals as in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria...global dominance in all areas.


In case you have not noticed, the United States has no control over Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria. Try again.


According to you America is innocent and has no control of the problems which it has created in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria even though evidence says otherwise.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

There method for controlling the local population was fear an intimidation. They stole from shops took peoples cars locked them up if they said anything. And in certain cases killed them and put them in mass graves. All the stuff they did is coming out now that the press can get in there and dont have to worry about going to jail. Slovyansk is already turning back to normal people can move on to living there lives instead of the Russian occupation that went on for months.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 02:31 PM
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a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter




Of course Ukraine always blames the Rebels i am still waiting for proof that they destroyed a bunch of Russian aid convoy trucks.


When did military vehicles become an aid convoy...that's right they are supposed be aiding the separatists.


Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said the rebels were in the process of receiving some 150 armoured vehicles, including 30 tanks, and 1,200 fighters who he said had spent four months training in Russia.


uk.reuters.com...

So now what are the odds that the separatists are awaiting that type of military hardware, and Ukraine finds them and confronts them?

Dumb luck, or smart move...



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 04:12 PM
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a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter


According to you America is innocent and has no control of the problems which it has created in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria even though evidence says otherwise.


Did I say "innocent?" I simply pointed out that the United States clearly has no control in those countries. Could you explain why you believe that all the tribal infighting is serving American interests?


edit on 19-8-2014 by DJW001 because: Edit to correct formatting.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

It wasnt dumb luck Ukraine has infiltrated the separatists i was reading one article where the driver making the deliveries into Slovyansk worked for the Ukrainian SBU. Believe me when i say there is lots of spies in the separatists movement right now and why not its incredibly easy to spy on a small group.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 05:30 PM
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What a prolonged rant.

)



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 09:45 PM
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a reply to: DJW001

The EU neither has control, this is between Russia and Ukraine (for now).
Because Putin's plans are way bigger than this, his new spiritual Russia.
People walk through the streets with an image of Putin held high, the swastika is back in the streets and the military might is shown.
Back in March 'russia today' reported about how Russia was the only country able to transform Amerika into a pile of ash.
Why would this be?
On russian forums i read about how he despises the west, wants the EU to break up, Amerika and Obama are made fun of, and while that is ok, we sometimes make fun of russia, it is clear that Russia is going down the path of war.
Saying one thing but doing the opposite like we have seen in the last few days.
I find it very disturbing to see that so many westerners are so full of hate towards their own country and government, but it is also understandable, our politicians have created this sick environment themselves.
There is a big disconnect between the government and the people they are supposed to represent, they have forgotten that they should be loyal to the people, not the big money.



posted on Aug, 20 2014 @ 04:32 AM
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a reply to: MrSpad

you are talking like the rebels have been defeated...

however, despite all odds, they're still fighting.



posted on Aug, 20 2014 @ 06:01 AM
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a reply to: DJW001




In case you have not noticed, the United States has no control over Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or Syria. Try again.


That reply made me think so I went wandering around the internet. It is you that brought up the word control...what they can't control they will contain or happily destroy. If they can't install a puppet then they will settle for disruption.

I see in Iraq that things may not have gone quite to plan however there is whole raft of private companies that have made and are still making a fortune out of the illegal invasion. Not to mention the military industrial complex and all that goes with it...and did I mention the banks?



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