Brown Autopsy Report Leaked by NYT

I'm no expert on how a body falls when shot...but from an untrained point of view, doesn't the fact that the shots were from the front and after he was killed he is face down and body stretched out kind of show that he was moving forward towards the source of the gunshots?

If he was on his knees or stationary and got shot in the head...would his body stretch out with his legs straight and body almost perfectly laying down? Wouldn't he be a little more crumpled?

a reply to: butcherguy

Yeah, it is evident that this kid makes a lot of testosterone. Probably too much. He should have drank more coffee or tea, the endocrine disruptors in those can be used to moderate testosterone with little permanent side effects. They aren't like plastic which stays in the body, they stimulate you to pee out the disruptors after they have done their job.

Beer and booze and other fermented products can make some people like that by creating reserves of octapines. So can certain carbonated beverages with an attached methyl group and sugar.

Gee, I am turning back into a nerd again

a reply to: kruphix

Hadn't thought of that. Interesting. According to doc. Badden, he could have been running backwards, or rushing forward with head down. That was just said at the live presser...He needs more info, he still said its inconclusive. It's possible 2 of the bullets re entered?? And also, Doc Badden said the head injury was the only fatal injury. Did anyone else watch the presser?? Please add more info if so....

a reply to: NavyDoc

No. But the upper arm tends to be quite a bit further forward-pointing than one might assume without trying it. He also could have beens truck as he raised his arms. It's all up in the air, frankly, and I think we agree when I say there's not much point offering conjecture.

originally posted by: beezzer
I'm not a CSI expert, I don't even watch the tv shows.

But if his arms were raised over his head, then it indicates (to my inexperienced mind) a close group of shots (right arm and head).

If his arm was raised, wouldn't the entry be in the back of the arm. Hold you arm up and check which side is now toward the front.

a reply to: roadgravel

Yeah. Again, I'm no expert, just my initial impressions to the autopsy chart.

originally posted by: kruphix
And since this autopsy disproves the shot in the back theory, that really damages the credibility of ALL the eye witness testimony.

Dorian Johnson first gave his account of Brown being shot in the back...and then every other eye witness repeated that he was definitely shot in the back. To me that just tells me that these other eye witnesses were highly influenced by what Dorian Johnson originally said.

Since it seems like every single witness has gotten that wrong...you really have to question the validity of the rest of their testimony as well.

There's some problems I see with this assessment.

1. The point was just made by Dr. Cyril Wecht on CNN, commenting on the press conference by Dr. Michael Baden, that the wounds to the arm where not necessarily from shots fired while Michael Brown was facing the officer. If you imagine a body while running, arms to the side and swinging, it's possible that one or more of those wounds could have been caused by a bullet coming from behind Michael Brown.

In the autopsy diagram, the body is shown supine, with the arms to the sides, palms up. This is not a natural position for standing let alone running.

I missed most of what Dr. Baden said, but Dr. Wecht appeared to be speaking to something that had been said by Dr. Baden.

2. The witnesses did say that he appeared to have been shot. Specifically, from the earliest interviews by Tiffany Mitchell, she stated that Michael Brown's body appeared to jerk as though he had been shot and it was at this point that he stopped, turned and raised his arms. Human memory is a very mutable thing. Drop the average person on a street with gun shots being fired only several feet away, I'm sure the brain is doing a lot of it's own interpretation — hearing shots and seeing something that looks like a jerking motion would give that appearance.

3. Tiffany Mitchell gave her statement to the police immediately following the shooting. We've not seen this statement, but as far as I can tell, it was given prior to the Dorian Johnson interview.

originally posted by: roadgravel

originally posted by: beezzer
I'm not a CSI expert, I don't even watch the tv shows.

But if his arms were raised over his head, then it indicates (to my inexperienced mind) a close group of shots (right arm and head).

If his arm was raised, wouldn't the entry be in the back of the arm. Hold you arm up and check which side is now toward the front.

In the autopsy diagram, the body is lying supine with the arms to the sides, palms up. This is not typically how the arms are positioned when a person is standing, running, etc. However, when you raise your arms in surrender, the palms are typically facing forward with the fingers extended.

EDIT:

I'm watching a rebroadcast of the press conference and the other pathologist who was working with Dr. Baden said that the wound to the medial aspect of the forearm could be consistent with a shot fired while Michael Brown was turned away from Darren Wilson. They also point out that it could have been sustained as the arm was being raised. This is very interesting to me though I can of course imagine a couple of arm positions where this would could have been sustained by a shot fired from the front as well (arms raised high during running, arms brought in across the chest in anticipation of shoving, arms raised to deliver a punch).

originally posted by: theantediluvian
...It of course could fit, but I don't actually hear it. I've listened to those few seconds a few dozen times now and I'm not hearing anything that I could honestly construe as "but he kept coming toward him." Give it a few listens yourself if you haven't already, it's right around the 7 minute mark.

...

Will try again, later, today - Thanks!

As you, I found it difficult to explicitly discern what was being said...
I did, though, find it interesting, that the conversation was almost entirely recognizable...when I was not trying to hear it...
Now - how do you take notes on a conversation that you are not listening to...?
Thanks again, for your thoughts/response.

originally posted by: JuniorDisco
a reply to: NavyDoc

No. But the upper arm tends to be quite a bit further forward-pointing than one might assume without trying it. He also could have beens truck as he raised his arms. It's all up in the air, frankly, and I think we agree when I say there's not much point offering conjecture.

Actually, I enjoy the mental exercise. I've seen thousands of GSW and fragmentation wounds in my deployments and they do follow certain patterns, but you do get anomalous wounds that make you shake your head in puzzlement. Unlike CSI, you can't say "definitely" most the time, you can only say "consistent with."

originally posted by: Bilk22
a reply to: backwherewestarted

Well the "shot in the back" just went out the window. The witness report - someone was caught on a cell phone talking to police - said that Brown was initially running away, but when the cop got out of his car, Brown turned toward him and tried to "bullrush the cop". Not sure if that is posted here in one of the many threads or not. The witness also said that Brown was seen leaning into the cop car and then ran from it. Shots or a shot was heard while Brown was leaning into the car.

I don't think people, or at least some people, want to know the truth or let it be known.

No the shot in the back didn't go out the window. According to the medical examiner the shot to the arm could have came from the back or front.
Lawyer: Autopsy shows unarmed teen repeatedly shot

Forensic pathologist Shawn Parcells, who assisted former New York City chief medical examiner Dr. Michael Baden during the autopsy, said a graze wound on Brown's right arm could have occurred in several ways. The teen may have had his back to the shooter, or he could have been facing the shooter with his hands above his head or in a defensive position in front of his face, "but we don't know," Parcells said.

a reply to: beezzer

Arms up doesn't necessarily mean arms over your head, most common reaction I think is to just bend your elbows and have your hands beside your face or in front of.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Yes, but I meant that the conjecture doesn't have much value in terms of apportioning blame.

a reply to: Bilk22

But facts like that would be inconvenient to the apologists.

If only 3 bullets were found in the body of the deceased why do they keep saying he was shot 6 times?

Also the report says , ENTRY AND RE-ENTRY,, not each wound is a bullet, fired.

a reply to: backwherewestarted

You will NEVER see this kind of investigation/attention for the victims of gang crime.

why did no one ask if DNA was found on Brown, from the officer??

originally posted by: kruphix
Here is an article about Dorian Johnson's version and he says shot in the back.
www.msnbc.com...

That's not a quote from Dorian.

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

It does disprove that he was shot directly in the back which is what people have been repeating over and over.

I just haven't seen anyone actually say he was shot "in the back". a reply to: butcherguy

Again, that's not s direct quote from Johnson. I'm wondering if everyone is thinking Johnson actually said he was shot IN THE BACK.

if the officer was struck by Brown, in the face,,is there evidence on Browns hands/knuckles/fingernails?? was it looked for?

a reply to: theantediluvian

well we know she is probably lying because he wasn`t hit in the torso.
Dr.Baden said that there was only one wound that could have been inflicted from a shot coming from behind him and that wound was just a grazing shot to the arm.
A 6`4" 300 pound man is not going to jerk or lurch from a grazing shot to the arm as he running.