What "Justice" Means To Those In Ferguson Mo.

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posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 10:50 PM
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a reply to: AphoticJoe

Extremely well said. Thank-you.




posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 10:58 PM
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I have a message to the idiots in Ferguson: grow up. Stop expecting respect when you prove every day you don't deserve it and are seemingly incapable of earning any.

Something went terribly wrong, and a young man paid the ultimate. Do not shame him with mob mentality. I was adopted and my heritage is indecipherable. As such, I am uniquely qualified to speak on issues of race and perceived injustices. I have lived my entire life ostracized by all races but I don't complain, riot, loot, and call for things I can't earn on my own. I have proven over and over that when I work hard and prove my worth I never have the need to cry foul over the color of my skin or the lack of attention for my accomplishments.

So, Ferguson, earn your justice. Demanding it by violence and civil unrest will almost certainly doom your efforts, regardless of any merits your argument has.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 11:03 PM
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a reply to: PansophicalSynthesis

It all boils down to a simple fact. A white man killed a black man. All the black community sees is race. I've seen it time and time again over the past few years. Always people like Al Sharpton who gets up in everyone's faces about "racism" while he himself is probably one of the biggest racists on the planet.

I know not everyone in the black community is like this, and for you all I give you all a thanks for using your head. But it's starting to get old that they (black community) are always placing the blame on someone else for their problems.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 02:11 AM
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a reply to: queenofswords


None of that matters to the people that are racist and full of hatred and just want to see the white man suffer regardless.


The flip side of that is that you've come to a hell of a lot of conclusions because of your own prejudices.


I think the OP may be right. Some of these people simply want this cop's head...period. Never mind that the 6'4" 300 lb. young man may have been attempting to strong-arm Wilson and steal his weapon and may have been coming at him in a threatening manner to inflict bodily harm and take his firearm. It might be a fact that Brown was hyped up on something, feeling powerful and emboldened by the robbery he had just committed, and determined to harm this LEO before being arrested.


That could be true or that could be completely wrong. It could also be that the cop had a mentality similar to yours or the OP's and felt justified in shooting Michael Brown. Do you have any evidence that he was "hyped up on something?" Emboldened by the act of pushing a 5-foot-nothing clerk out of his way? Did he strike the clerk? Choke him? Was he so "emboldened" that he felt invincible to bullets? If so, why run down the street after the initial shot instead of continuing to struggle for the gun?



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

You're going off of "witness accounts". It's my intuition that all of these witness accounts are being fabricated due to racial tensions and anti-authoritarian perspectives that are fostered and arisen out of the black community. It's everywhere in the modern day black culture, even in the music they listen to. Their rappers and hipsters emulate thugs and sing about killing cops and their hate for police.

I think the eyewitness accounts are lies to persuade public opinion and to attempt to effect the outcome of the trial.

We'll eventually see what the truth is, though! And remember, even then, the judges and the medical examiners don't always get things right, nor do they always all settle on the same conclusions! It's going to be a circus!



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: PansophicalSynthesis

The problem that everyone is having in this situation is that both sides have allowed larger societal issues to be personified by this one confrontation. One side of the debate looks at a black kid being killed by police, and they say, "look, racism." The other side looks at the fact that that kid had just committed a robbery, and they say, "nope, racism is dead." The same thing happened with Trayvon Martin. What both sides need to realize is this isn't about whether or not Michael Brown was innocent or guilty, or whether or not Darren Wilson was justified in shooting him or not. The problem is systemic. The problem is that the current system of funding schools with property taxes virtually guarantees that poor minority kids go to bad schools, and white kids, by and large, go to better schools. Kids from bad schools get funneled into jails, and kids from good schools get funneled into colleges. Police in bad neighborhoods, rightly or wrongly, are more aggressive in their tactics than police in good neighborhoods. Therefore residents of bad neighborhoods have a worse relationship with police. And, because police are more aggressive in bad neighborhoods, more people in those neighborhoods get caught up in the justice system for doing things that residents of good neighborhoods get away with. Children from bad neighborhoods are more likely to have parents who didn't go to college, or who are working two jobs to stay afloat, or who are in prison...and they cycle repeats itself.

That's all real racism. That's the real problem. The problem is that we have, as a country, locked a large portion of the minority population into system which by its very nature does not protect them, or enrich them, or better them in the way that the system protects and enriches and betters people who have not been locked into poor neighborhoods and ghettos. People in Ferguson, whether they realize it or not, aren't angry about Michael Brown. They're not protesting because of Michael Brown. They're certainly not looting because of Michael Brown. They're angry, protesting, rioting, looting, because they weren't given the same chances as people who got to go to good public schools, or private schools. Because their parents were incarcerated or were never home because they had to work multiple jobs, or because they have to worry about whether or not they're going to be able to make ends meet with their minimum wage jobs. They're angry, in short, because the system is self-reinforcing...the way it's set up means that most people born into poverty will die in poverty, and most people born into the middle class will die in the middle class, and most people born wealthy will die wealthy. And that self-reinforcing system hurts minorities, and benefits white people.

People on both sides of the issue need to realize that, that's the real debate. That's where the real anger is. And so if it turns out that Michael Brown absolutely had it coming...that's not the end of the anger. Just like the end of Trayvon Martin's case wasn't the end of the anger. Those are just anecdotes which people have decided exemplify the underlying problems...whether or not they're fitting anecdotes is a non-issue. We need to, as a country, address the underlying problems...otherwise...Ferguson will fade from the headlines in two or three weeks...and another town will pop up in the news for the same stuff.

Best

Woozy



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: Woozy

Facts, statistics, numbers please?

Really though, as I read your reply my face kept cringing. The typical excuse riddled, victimized mentality that is spewed and repeated out of and from the black community and its elites.

These kids aren't homeless. These kids aren't starving. These kids are going out, committing crimes and doing drugs. No one's keeping opportunity from these kids, but themselves because of their own actions.

As always, there are larger forces in play, and each individual has an entire life with singular incidents that define them.

To sit here and tell me that the system is set up to benefit white people in any way is a complete and total joke.

Nothing has been handed to me as it pertains to the things that I have wanted and had to earn to obtain. In fact, because of laws like "affirmative action" and its lingering affects, I, as a white male, have been subject to racial discrimination.

I don't buy any of it and never will. These people choose their life styles, refuse to change them, then blame others for their situations.

I don't think people are saying racism is dead, they're just saying that this isn't a case of racism, but it's being exploited as such by the black elites such as Sharpton.

I don't think you have a grasp on reality.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 12:32 PM
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a reply to: PansophicalSynthesis

Alright...statistics. According to a 2009 study, students in the bottom 20% of all family incomes were 5 times more likely to drop out of school than students in the top 20% of income brackets. 21% of african-american or hispanic students went to high poverty schools compared to 2% of white students. Poverty and the Drop Out Crisis

Only about 50% of african american, hispanic, and low income students graduate from high school on time. Of those who go to college, the college completion rate falls to 25%. Poverty and Education

Principals in high poverty high schools had significantly lower academic credentials than those in low poverty schools. Poverty and Principals

One in four african Americans born in 1990 would have at least one incarcerated parent during their lives. 3.6% of white children born in the same year would have at least one incarcerated parent. black v. white incarceration of parents

African American Men are 6 times more likely to be incarcerated than their white counterparts. Incarcaeration amongst African American Men

Prison Sentences were nearly 20% longer for African American Men than for white men for similar crimes. Sentence Lengths

A child born to parents in the lowest 20% income bracket is 10 times more likely to end up in the lowest 20% as an adult than they are to end up in the highest 20% income bracket as an adult.
Over 70% of students at the most competitive colleges come from families in the top 25% income bracket. 5% of the poorest students go to the same schools. Poverty and Education

I could keep going all day. Virtually all the research points in the same direction. African-American's are disproportionately poor. They go to worse schools. Their schools have less well credentialed faculty. Students coming out of these schools have a much much higher drop-out rate. African-American children are much much more likely to have a parent who is locked up. They are themselves much more likely to be incarcerated than their white counterparts. Their sentences are dramatically higher than sentences of their white counterparts for the same crimes. Wealthy Children go to the best schools. Poor, often African-American Children, are unlikely to complete college at all.

But let's be honest. You don't care about the statistics. I can spew these all day, and it won't change your mind. Because the mindset is, "I worked hard for everything I have, and they can too." Or maybe, " I overcame hurdles, none ever gave me anything." But the truth is apparent. Being born black means that statistically, there are strong factors working against you. I don't know if Officer Wilson is racist...personally I kind of doubt the shooting had anything to do with race. But the point of my initial post is that, it doesn't matter anymore. Because people aren't really mad about that. People are mad because their parents go to prison, their schools churn out drop outs, the highest ranks of academic achievement are largely closed to them, and because there is a crushing poverty which pervades every aspect of their lives. And that poverty stems from a still entrenched racial system. I can't speak to the hurdles anyone else has faced...but in the United States, all else being equal, it is advantageous to be born white.

Woozy



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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a reply to: Woozy

As I said already. Victimized mentality and assurance of entitlements.

I was asking you for statistics and facts regarding this neighborhood/community, since you were making so many assertions about it. Of course they are going to be overwhelmingly black biased in nature because 65% of Ferguson is black!

It's absurd for people like you to blame people like me for the failure of black intellect, weak Mother and Father figures in their homes, and for the a shortcoming of their opportunities and successes.

I am living my own life. I don't go out day to day and steal from black communities. I don't hold guns to little black kids heads and tell them to rob stores and hate cops. You know who REALLY does these things? BLACK RAPPERS, BLACK GANG MEMBERS.

Don't blame us. They need to look at themselves.

By the way, your arguments are inherently flawed because you fail to account for where wealth comes from. All people aren't suddenly unevenly distributed wealth one day. It has been accrued in families for generations.

The reason that there are "wealthy" families sending their children to "good schools" is because someone in their family worked for it. However, at some point in their history, it wasn't always like that.

When this specific side of the black community decides that it wants to bind together and become intelligent and a part of America and stop being anti-government, anti-police and expecting hand-outs and sympathy forever, then maybe some of their children will be able to go to a "good school".

If the school's in Ferguson aren't "up to par", then who's to blame? Like I said, if we're gonna play the race card and the blame White America game, then look at the percentage of the population. 66% black or so. At what point do they become responsible for their own community and its actions?
edit on -05:00pm8512014p01502014-08-18T13:50:51-05:00pm by PansophicalSynthesis because: additional commentary
edit on -05:00pm8482014p01552014-08-18T13:55:48-05:00pm by PansophicalSynthesis because: spelling



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 05:25 PM
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a reply to: PansophicalSynthesis

I'm not in any way blaming you anymore than I'm blaming myself or any other white person. It's not about the "white man" keeping anyone down. At least not overtly. What I'm suggesting is not that you, or I, or any other white person is playing the game unfairly. I'm suggesting that the game is just not a fair game. It is a game in which, societally, systemically, black people are disadvantaged. I'm sure you work hard. I'm sure your parents worked hard. I'd be willing to bet that your grandparents and great grandparents worked hard too. And you benefited from all of that. There's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of people's parents, or great-grandparents, or great great grandparents worked hard too...and because of racism...racism which was overt for the greater part of our country's existence. Racism which prevented those people from accumulating wealth, from getting good jobs, from going to good schools, and from living in entire areas. Those people, through no fault of their own, were forced into ghettos. They were treated unfairly by the justice system. They weren't able to obtain a decent education. Etc. Etc. That legacy of overt racism has been passed down to us. We didn't ask for it...but it's true. I grew up in a good neighborhood because my dad could afford it. I went to a good high school because I lived in a good neighborhood. I went to a decent college because I went to a good high school. I got into professional school because of my education in high school and college. And I didn't end up in the criminal justice system because I lived in a good neighborhood and went to good schools. The correlation is proven again and again in study after study. If you don't like the studies I've posted, you can research it for yourself. And that doesn't make me a racist...it doesn't mean I've kept anyone down...it means that the system worked in my favor. And for a lot of people...because of racism which is both historical and present even today...racism which has left a deep and enduring legacy...for those people, the system has worked against them.

You say the people of ferguson should work hard. I absolutely agree. It would be a lot more productive given the current systemic flaws than rioting and looting. If you work hard, some people still can drag themselves up. But if you want to know why those people are rioting and looting, deep down, it's not because of Michael Brown. It's because they don't have the same opportunities that white people do. It's because they're mad that they were born into a place and into a circumstance which has made it difficult to drag themselves up. Not impossible, but difficult.

I don't know what kind of statistics you want from me. Apparently something specific to Ferguson? A town of 20,000? I would be surprised if any in depth social research has ever been conducted on that limited pool of people. But I've given plenty of research on racial disparities nation wide. And many more exist. So given those racial disparities...the only two real conclusions are either (1) there is a systemic problem which has led african-American's to be statistically undereducated, over incarcerated, and poor. That is what I'm going with. Or (2) African-American people are inherently lazy or dumb or...what? I absolutely reject that hypothesis. If that's what you're going with, then I don't really need to respond anymore, because that's just an outright racist view which cannot be rationally discussed.

If you want black people to stop being angry, to stop rioting, to stop crying foul every time someone gets shot, the real solution isn't more police. It's not welfare, or handouts. It's not telling them to work harder. The solution is to make sure that all of our citizens, white and black, rich and poor are afforded a good education from the time they're kids. It's to stop locking people up for drug crimes, and instead direct them into rehab programs. It's to make sure that every school has pre-K programs, and good after-school programs. It's to make police a part of the community who want to help the residents of that community, rather than just people in police cruisers who roll around and look for suspicious black men. It's to help prisoners reintegrate into society so that people aren't marked for life based on one mistake. It's to make sure that kids get a good lunch no matter how poor they are. If you want people to stop being angry, then you need to give them every opportunity to succeed...Because right now...its not a fair game. And communities like Ferguson will keep getting mad at how unfair the game is. If a white kid got shot today in a white neighborhood by a black police officer...there would be no riots...not because white people are more civil or more peaceful or harder working. There would be no riots because white people are confident that society, and the police, and the government at large has their best interests in mind.

Woozy



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 05:57 PM
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a reply to: Woozy

Hey, I just can't agree with you or continue to confabulate. As long as you think that blacks are at some type of societal disadvantage, then this will go no where and it's a waste of time and energy for both of us. I don't want to hear (see it) it and you don't want to wake up to reality.

I think I've made the points that I intended to make. Entitlement and anti-authoritarian world-views. To make it worse, people like you sympathize with them. So, add on sympathizers to that notion.

You call for a socialistic communistic society. Go move to China. In America, if you want the best things money can offer, you work for it. That's capitalism. Learn it, love it, or just leave, please.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 06:41 PM
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a reply to: PansophicalSynthesis

Yeah...I think we both made our points, and I think you're probably right about this conversation no longer being fruitful (if it ever was). But just for the record, I identify as a moderate Democrat...although it doesn't have the same ring as communist socialist nazi authoritarian sympathizer. And I'm happy to stay in my country. I love the US...but thanks for the invitation.

For what its worth, five years ago, I probably would have agreed with you completely. But hey, when you keep your ears (eyes) open to views you don't like, sometimes your thinking evolves. Honestly, best wishes and no hard feelings...we can all disagree about society, just as long as everyone wants the best for it. And I think we both do.

Woozy



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:26 PM
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Props to both of you for discussing this in a very civil manner! Now both of you need to come here to Missouri and show these fools how it's done.... I'm here watching this crap. These people here have lost their minds. Nobody is talking, just screaming. Justice will be served here on these streets. But who's justice will it be? There are so many variables to it it boggles the mind. Poor people white and Black, Idiots running the city, years of urban decay, unemployment, crime, a small untrained and overwhelmed Police Force, A county focused on tourism and taxation... then lets add.

A hot summer, a shooting, and hoards of media whores to fan the flames. Rumors and continued violence by people who just came over to loot and have a good time...

Whats going to happen when Eric Holder has to come out and tell the masses there will be no charges..Really if they had ANY case against this officer he would have been charged by now. The City has reviewed it, the county has looked at it and 40 FBI agents have investigated it... The main issue with those in charge of this investigation is Who is going out there to tell us...



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: scattergun

Whats going to happen when Eric Holder has to come out and tell the masses there will be no charges..Really if they had ANY case against this officer he would have been charged by now. The City has reviewed it, the county has looked at it and 40 FBI agents have investigated it... The main issue with those in charge of this investigation is Who is going out there to tell us...


Maybe that's why private security companies are being brought in. I would hate to be a business owner in Ferguson or anywhere near there right now. There's not enough leos locally to manage what I predict will happen.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:52 PM
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Who does one blame school drop out on but the student? Drop outs are the ones depriving them self of the schooling.





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