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Do ANY Christians still believe in "Purgatory" ?

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posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 10:29 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Also called Bardo of the waiting room of the soul by buddhists, this concept is still relavent as it is seen as the place we await judgement or karma, in orthodox christianity it was believed that the soul's went there until judgement day, except saint's and martyrs who had ascended.

In spiritualism some believe that when a soul passes before it's time, such as murdered it can either be earthbound or move to a kind of waiting area until it was it's time, a soul can overstay on earth, maybe it is fearful of how it lived it's life and would rather fade than face judgement but a soul is not supposed to go before it's time.

In reincarnation belief this can serve a purpose as the body or life that fit's you has to become ready to accept your soul if you are to reincarnate.

There are many convergant belief's, one is that injured soul's have to heal and depending on how ill they are they sleep until they can ascend or come back, another that spirits can actually die and even after mortal death we still lead a mortal life just on a higher plane, perhaps with another higher plane above that.

Now I am a christian so here is my take on it, we have to be judged but there are only two people that can judge us, ourselves with all our flaw's so our judgement is bound to be also flawed and our creator who is what we were supposed to mirror or be like.

Jesus said God is the god of the living not the dead, he that believes in me shall never die and he that is dead but believes in me shall yet live, now I am not just spouting the bible, think on what he said.

Did jesus believe in a purgatory is a better question as we are merely his flock.

As for the resurrection he made it clear when asked a simple question by some scholors that were trying to trip him in there argument about a woman who married seven brother's who all died before she did, he explained in the resurrection we are no longer male or female but have what he called a celestial or universal body like the servant's of god, in other word's like the angel's, this is an ascension and rebirth into another higher state of being so other than a medievil tool to scare people into putting money into the fat bishop's collection box (Which still goes on today with certain well known preachers that say one thing and live another) it may exist but to perhaps act as a barrier or place between the physical and spiritual world's, remember jesus said God is a spirit so a spirit created the physical world, the closest possible reference is when jesus said there are many mansions in my father's house which has many meaning's of course.

Do I believe in purgatory well here is an old catholic prayer.

Bless oh lord the Repose I am about to take that renewing my strength I may better be enabled to serve thee,
Pour down thy blessing oh lord on my parent's, relation's, friend's and enemy's,
Protect the pope, our bishop and all the pastors of thy holy church,
Look with an eye of pity oh lord upon the suffering soul's in purgatory,
Put an end to there suffering oh lord and lead them forth into everlasting joy,
Through Jesus Christ thy son Our lord and saviour Amen.

This was part of the night prayers that were to be said by all catholic's, though I am not a papist I do like this one but I am a marionite christian which mean's I venerate the virgin mary as our mother from the time jesus said to his apostle from the cross, "Son Behold your mother" and then to his mother mary "Woman behold your son", this apostle was seen as the ideal christian and all christian's even those not of churches bound by the conclave of nicenea also regarded her as such, that was until sophists, gnostics and other heretical factions related to many occult societys which also believed the non christian hermetica twisted the writings to there own agenda proving they were every bit as bad as the corruption within the church, when the protestant religion (From which about half our brothers come) was born being much younger than any other mainstream branch of christianity the worship of mary the maternal intercessor was almost totally abandoned in error and possibly because of these same occult society influence.

Now was purgatory an invention of the gnostic movement (Gnosticism is from Gnosis which is greek for knowledge where Sophis is wisdom), I do not know, I do not think so but it does have a parallel in jewish scripture, what I do know is there is no clear concensus but the jewish faith (From which christianity arose remember) does not have references to the land of forgetfulness, like the passage where the resurrected Lazarus in christian scripture say's "I have walked the land's beneath the earth" the lower realm perhaps but not actually hell just were the soul's not in communion with god go, here is a jewish site that is pertenant.
www.myjewishlearning.com...

Here is a catholic take on it though,
www.aboutcatholics.com...

Now what do I believe, it matter's more if you believe in God and the Savior Jesus Christ and try your best to live a good life as he judges us by our own measure and I do not think belief in these other realm's except to defend against spiritual attack is that necessary.

Lasty in the end we may be unfortunate enough to find out.
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posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 10:53 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

Well yes I do reject Maccabees as do most Christians today.

Why is it that most bibles have cut out the Apocrypha ?
Bible Hub



In 1546 C.E., at the Council of Trent, that the Roman Catholic Church definitely confirmed its acceptance of these additions into its catalog of Bible books, and this action was deemed necessary because, even within the church, opinion was still divided over these writings. John Wycliffe, the Roman Catholic priest and scholar who, with the subsequent help of Nicholas of Hereford, in the 14th century made the first translation of the Bible into English, did include the Apocrypha in his work, but in the preface to this translation declared such writings to be “without authority of belief.” Dominican Cardinal Cajetan, foremost Catholic theologian of his time (1469-1534 C.E.) and called by Clement VII the “lamp of the Church,” also differentiated between the books of the true Hebrew canon and the Apocryphal works, appealing to the writings of Jerome as an authority.
It is to be noted as well that the Council of Trent did not accept all the writings previously approved by the earlier Council of Carthage but dropped three of these: the Prayer of Manasses and 1 and 2 Esdras (not the 1 and 2 Esdras that, in the Catholic Douay Bible, correspond with Ezra and Nehemiah). Thus, these three writings that had appeared for over 1,100 years in the approved Latin Vulgate were now excluded.


Even the Vatican is making a joke of it now
Reduce Time in Purgatory Via Twitter !
edit on 16-8-2014 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:04 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33


Well yes I do reject Maccabees as do most Christians today.

Actually, most Christians today are Catholic
( The Global Catholic Population)

Are you intentionally hiding the fact that you are a non-Christian, a Jehovah's Witness, who rejects the divinity of Christ?

Sorry to out you to hardcore Protestants, lol.



edit on 16-8-2014 by adjensen because: missing parenthesis



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:12 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

Just got to butt in on that, The sect of which you speak has many good people, misguided but still good in there heart, though I am not and never have been one of them I can say that I like many others have stumbled in my theological reasoning as far as the nature of christ is concerned, He is God that I accept and believe but He is also the highest priest to the father and only through him can we come to the father, only by seeing him can we see the father so the explanation is there, theology make's it too complicated and may as well be in gobbledygook latin that only a handful speak, a simple recognition that he pray's to his father but he is God, and the buck for us stop's with him is all that matter's in the end, if we are meant to understand that differently he can put that into our heart's if he will's it.
Judge not lest ye be judged, remember the people in that sect came searching christ but ended up on that path so do we damn our brothers or not.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:21 PM
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originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Get it clear. Purgatory is a state, it is not a place. I've never said anything else.

And Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, which included Maccabees.


Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed their promised Messiah, it follows as a matter of course that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time! (Source)

The Protestant Bibles, post Luther, removed the books of the Septuagint, because they are contrary to Protestant beliefs, but it is 100% obvious that Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, not the Protestant version of the Old Testament.

No, I specifically asked you if Maccabees is quoted. It's not. Thanks!

Oh and the HEBREW version of the New Testament, having nothing to do with Christians at all, does not include Maccabees. Thanks again for admitting that.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:23 PM
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originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I've already shown it, in 2 Maccabees.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness, that rejects 2 Maccabees?


Many Christians reject 2 Maccabees. Jews do too. As I already told you, you are lying, it was JEWS who rejected Maccabees, not Christians.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:31 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

I have threads on the Trinity on ATS, I am not hiding anything.
Also you should know that some Bible Students have the same basic core belief system as Jehovah's Witnesses.
And some elements of truth can be found in many different religions.

As in No Trinity, No Purgatory, No Hellfire and people going to be living on the earth after Armageddon with a general resurrection of good and bad people. Those five points aren't hard to figure out by just reading the bible without centuries of dogma mudding the waters. I will say no more on that point, but I needed to address it at least once, and I won't again going forward in this thread.

I don't want to get off topic, this thread is on purgatory.

Is it a real place Christians go to before they go to heaven after they died, or has the Church changed it up to mean when you are suffering when still alive in the flesh. If they really have then that's ok, but some traditionalists may still believe in it as place to go after death, a pit-stop before heaven.

This is the current definition of purgatory

(in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:38 PM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
This is the current definition of purgatory

(in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.





No, the current definition is that Purgatory is a state of being while alive, and not a place. That is straight from the Pope, which makes it infallible, meaning it can now never be altered. That is the definition for all time for Catholics.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:52 PM
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originally posted by: Murgatroid
Purgatory and 'non-existence' are both equally heretical.

I believe it was condemned as heresy in 553 A.D.


In summary, annihilationism is not biblical. For this reason, it was condemned by the Second Council of Constantinople (AD 553) and the Fifth Lateran Council (1513). theresurgence.com...


That was the Catholic Church and purgatory is alive and kicking in catholicism, was never heretical.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 01:09 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Purgatory

Seems a bit convoluted to me ???



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 01:13 AM
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a reply to: Unity_99

Quite honestly, the whole thing sounds like a 1500 year old Confidence Trick to me.

What better way to extract wealth from the masses. Just do it with a gun pointed at your soul. Pay us all your base, so your soul is safe.

Otherwise Jesus would be displeased, and send you right to hell.

Pay up for your "sins." Lol.
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posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 01:56 AM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Purgatory

Seems a bit convoluted to me ???

That website is wrong, and has erroneous information. Not even Catholics know what they teach. The Church has never officially endorsed Purgatory as a place, and has recently officially stated it is NOT a place. It was from a Pope, which means it's "infallible" (if you are a Catholic). So forever more Purgatory can never be thought of as a place, to do so would mean a Pope is wrong, which would mean Catholicism is wrong at it's very core teachings.

ETA: That website flat out hilariously contradicts themselves .....


2. It is not a second chance: The soul is already saved. Purgatory is a place to pay off debts for sins that were forgiven but for which sufficient penance had not been done on earth.


3. It is not an actual place: Blessed John Paul II said in an Aug.4, 1999 general audience that purgatory was a state of being: “The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.” Pope Benedict XVI said in a Jan. 12, 2011 general audience, “This is purgatory, an interior fire.

Well which is it! It's a place .. it's not a place ... I am confused.
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posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 02:08 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It means Papal authority is broken. God is not the author of confusion. Since this conflicts, we can state that the real God, left that house long ago. What you see is a lot of people rolling around the floor until the lights go out.

Infallible leaves no room for error. That is after all, what you are force fed in that belief system.

As the saying goes, you can't have your cake and eat it too.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 02:15 AM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It means Papal authority is broken. God is not the author of confusion. Since this conflicts, we can state that the real God, left that house long ago. What you see is a lot of people rolling around the floor until the lights go out.

Infallible leaves no room for error. That is after all, what you are force fed in that belief system.

As the saying goes, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
To be fair, only #3 comes from the Pope. #2 is a long held belief of Catholics that was never officially endorsed. They don't seem to be able to let it go though, even after their Pope says to.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 02:23 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The definition of infallible means by extension absolute truth. You have pointed out an error. How can there be truth, in a house of lies? Hard to say you are infallible, if you can't get your story straight.

One needs only to look at history for that.

The Emperor wears no clothes. Pull one string and watch it unravel. You found one of many loose ends to choose from.

Just apply your screen name. :-)


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posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 02:30 AM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The definition of infallible means by extension absolute truth. You have pointed out an error. How can there be truth, in a house of lies? Hard to say you are infallible, if you can't get your story straight.

One needs only to look at history for that.

The Emperor wears no clothes. Pull one string and watch it unravel. You found one of many loose ends to choose from.

The error lies not with the Pope, it lies with the person who made that website. Although Catholicism allowing all those priests to rake in the money with Purgatory over the years makes all those Popes as good as complicit if you ask me.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 02:32 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Exactly. Reload my comment. I've added more. What if you work up the chain? Who does the buck stop with? Have other popes admitted it is all fraud in their own works? Or, other commentaries? The answer, may surprise you.
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posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 03:41 AM
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Why would Christians believe in something that is not taught in the Bible? This seems like a moot argument what ever way you choose to look at it.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 04:51 AM
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originally posted by: DarknStormy
Why would Christians believe in something that is not taught in the Bible? This seems like a moot argument what ever way you choose to look at it.


I think they believe in purgatory because it fills highly questionable gaps in the logic of their belief system - ensoulment and "what happens to good ppl who aren't Christians/baptized", and other such questions etc.

Without purgatory ppl like Ghandi go straight to hell etc.

This concept is like a place for people not bad enough for hell, but not yet good enough for heaven, this is convenient for many reasons. The Bible, however, does not speak of anything like purgatory at all. Much like other things like abortion too however.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 05:26 AM
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originally posted by: igor_ats

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Why would Christians believe in something that is not taught in the Bible? This seems like a moot argument what ever way you choose to look at it.


I think they believe in purgatory because it fills highly questionable gaps in the logic of their belief system - ensoulment and "what happens to good ppl who aren't Christians/baptized", and other such questions etc.

Nope, Purgatory is not for those people at all. The Bible already talks about what happens to those people, there are no gaps there. They will be judged on what they know and the innate knowledge of right and wrong all people have.


Without purgatory ppl like Ghandi go straight to hell etc.

No, Purgatory is not for people like Ghandi. He most likely did go to Hell, but who knows, only God does.

This concept is like a place for people not bad enough for hell, but not yet good enough for heaven, this is convenient for many reasons. The Bible, however, does not speak of anything like purgatory at all. Much like other things like abortion too however.

No, that is not the idea behind Purgatory. Purgatory is for Christians who have professed their life for Christ, but had sins they had not done penance for (an example). Purgatory is not a 2nd chance, it is not for non-believers. It is solely for Christians.

Of course it doesn't exist .. but that was the teaching.




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