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Do ANY Christians still believe in "Purgatory" ?

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posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 06:47 PM
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originally posted by: DupontDeux
Catholics are not Christians? Are you joking?

And here I was thinking that the pope was a pretty christian fella..

I have it on good authority the he thinks that too!


Good 'authority' has been known to be wrong before...

Contrary to what religion says, saying or believing one is a Christian does not MAKE it so.

God told Howard Pittman during his NDE that not all the sayers would be in heaven, but all the doers would be.

Apparently mans definition of "believer" is not the same as God's definition.




posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid


I believe it was condemned as heresy in 553 A.D.

Purgatory has not been declared heretical.

It's a belief that originated with the Jews, not the Christians, and has been a part of the church since the beginning. Luther's denial of it, because of the indulgences scandal, did not reverse 1500 years of doctrine. Geez, he even changed the Bible to bolster his claims, one would think you "me and my Bible" types would be up in arms about that, guess not.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 07:27 PM
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PURGATORY




TextWith my family when they were Catholic (I never was) they used to relate abusive stories of the priests demanding money to pray to get there dead relatives to heaven. A doctrine that has no basis in the bible, but really good at being used to extort money via fear and control on the ignorant masses, many of who were sincere.

Purgatory was borrowed from rabbinic Judaic philosophy. There were and still are some Jews that believe in the philosophy of purgation of the spirit. This and also reincarnation was strongly believed by certain Jews and still is among certain Jewish sects. Christian purgatory came from the Jewish philosophy that there are three decisive factors in judgment of afterlife. There are the righteous and intermediate and condemned. Purgatory applies only to the intermediate who shall be punished with various punishments and lengths of time in puragtion. Then after the spirit is cleansed it is allowed to mingle in rapture with the righteous. This can have all sorts of gimmicks added to please both the pocket books and the dead who have the means to influence those in charge of the entire operation.



TextNow I see the same being used on people with "Hell" and even the rapture there is 2 movies coming out this year on this.

But there is a great difference in how this is interpreted. In rabbinic philosophy there is no Greek hell that one can escape its confines. There was a national collective Sheol in which all dead souls were cast. It was later and gradual that good and bad be separated in Sheol. It became a more correct idea that became a national belief and adopted as fact. But all were confined as prisoners in this underworld of the dead. To be purged was simply to graduate from one confined area to another more pleasant area.

Contrary to that was the Roman Christian philosophy which adopted the idea that Christ Jesus introduced the kingdom of heaven and that the sanctified spirits were removed from Sheol into the kingdom of God in heaven. As a result the same type of philosophy still exists with the exception that one can escape Sheol through purgation and enter into the celestial realm of the kingdom of heaven. That is if one is blessed by the church fathers. This blessing hinged upon how well the living could pay for the purgation.

But Jesus had no part in either of these philosophies and in fact preached all through His ministry the evils of this sort of practice. Actually there are few so called Christian sects that practice this today. It is neither covered by the Torah or the prophets or apostles and disciples of the original Christian Jewish Synagogues.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:08 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

There is absolutely NO Biblical support for purgatory

If religion says something, I recommend believing the opposite as a general rule.

Believing the opposite of propaganda and all that.

FYI: the origins of purgatory are actually pagan...


In every religious system, except that of the New Testament, the doctrine of purgatory after death and prayers for the dead have always found a place. In ancient and modern times, we find that paganism leaves hope after death for sinners, who, at the time of their departure, are unrepentant, and consciously unfit for heaven. For this purpose a "middle state" was invented in which guilt could be removed in the future world by means of purgatorial pains.

In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was inculcated. But when once this doctrine of purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was opened for all manner of priestly extortions. Prayers for the dead ever go hand in hand with purgatory; but no prayers can be completely efficacious without the interposition of the priests; and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there be special pay for them. Therefore, in every land we find the Pagan priesthood "devouring widow's houses," and making merchandise of the tender feelings of sorrowing relatives, sensitively alive to the immortal happiness of the beloved dead. From all quarters there is one universal testimony as to the burdensome character and the expense of these posthumous devotions. www.mtc.org...

The Origin of Purgatory

There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.

The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and "the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life." Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra-biblical writings and oral history. "So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity" (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed "Christian" doctrines. www.puregospeltruth.com...



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:19 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid


There is absolutely NO Biblical support for purgatory

Wrongo…


And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.

And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.

Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46 DRA)

That was in the Jewish Scripture that Jesus used, it is not in yours, because Luther and the Protestants removed it.

If you're going to be a "just me and my Bible" person, at the very least, you should use the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles did, and that was the Septuagint.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:22 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Officially the Catholic Church has never said it exists, and they have said it does NOT exist more recently. It was a money making scheme.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:23 PM
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originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Murgatroid


There is absolutely NO Biblical support for purgatory

Wrongo…

Want me to quote the Pope and destroy your entire argument? Or accept you are wrongo and move on?



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:24 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Blue_Jay33
It's still in the Catholic reference works, but they may be less inclined now to base it on 1 Corinthians ch3 vv12-15. I think Catholic scholars now appreciate that this passage is about something else.



The Catholic position is that there is no such place as Purgatory. They won't say there is no Purgatory because that would make them liars, so they simply say Purgatory is not a place and they use nice logical fallacies to cover their past abuse.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:29 PM
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originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Blue_Jay33


I pose that question because it is rarely talked about anymore.

Of course people still believe in it, I believed in it even when I was still a Protestant, because it makes sense.

Here's what the Catechism has to say on the matter:


Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1021-1022)

So, three outcomes after Christ judges you. Saints go straight to heaven, the condemned go to hell, and the rest of us, who were not in a state of mortal sin, but weren't saints, need a bit of a cleaning before we can be with God, because nothing unholy can be in his presence. And that's all purgatory is, the state we are in until our venial sins are purged from our essence.

All this talk by Reformed Protestants about us being "utterly depraved" and our actions being abominable to God, and then rejecting the notion that we would have to be purified before being brought into God's presence is nonsensical... if he hates you that much, if you're so horrible, why would God want you hanging around him?

Why do you list three outcomes when the catechism you quoted lists two?

either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1021-1022)

The very definition of either is one of TWO choices.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:33 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04


Want me to quote the Pope and destroy your entire argument?

Feel free, lol.

Pope John Paul II said that Purgatory wasn't a place, it was a state.

Exactly what I said. But feel free to destroy away



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04


Why do you list three outcomes when the catechism you quoted lists two?

Because it lists three:


Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.

1) entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification (Purgatory)
2) entrance into the blessedness of heaven immediately (saints)
3) immediate and everlasting damnation (the condemned)


edit on 16-8-2014 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:05 PM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Officially the Catholic Church has never said it exists, and they have said it does NOT exist more recently. It was a money making scheme.

Correcto...



The above reveals clearly the motivation behind purgatory. What loving person would not give up every earthly possession and every penny they own if they though they could end the torment and suffering of their recently deceased loved one, now thought to be in purgatory? The answer is simple. Purgatory is the machine that drives the sinner into the Church, and parts them from their money.

Without the incentive of lessening your burning torment in purgatory, the Church fears it's pews and coffers would be virtually empty. With the laity virtually ignorant of the Bible, the Church could sell their services to every relative of the recently deceased, and extract money indefinitely, indeed for years. How was one to know when God had been satisfied, and the poor suffering sinner released from purgatory to graduate to heaven? What if a relative stopped just short of enough masses, indulgences, etc.? Would the sinner remain in purgatory for the rest of time, simply because there was no one to pay off the priests? Oh, but for that last mass, that last coin in the offering basket!Purgatory is a complete fraud, perpetrated on the ignorant and the vulnerable. www.aloha.net...



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:19 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid


Correcto…

Wait… "www.aloha.net" is a more valid source of Vatican teaching than vatican.va is?

Not likely, lol.

Purgatory remains a Catholic teaching, dating from the time of Christ, and the Jewish teaching that Jesus followed.

Jesus >> Luther >> Murgatroid



edit on 16-8-2014 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:22 PM
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Well, at least one person has stepped up and admitted they believe in it, but it seems most of ATS understand it's fiction from Catholics, even Catholic clergy themselves have distanced themselves from it, that tells you where the doctrine of purgatory stands in in 2014.

And it's interesting that the belief of non-existence after death was considered heresy too, after all what leverage would the Church have on you if you believed that ?



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:28 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33


it seems most of ATS understand it's fiction from Catholics

If it is fiction, it is from Jewish thought, not Catholic.


even Catholic clergy themselves have distanced themselves from it

I've yet to see anyone in this thread show that "Catholic clergy themselves have distanced themselves from it".

It remains Catholic teaching, derived from Jewish teaching, and even Protestants are seeing the logic of it, as I linked to.

Aren't you a Jehovah's Witness?


edit on 16-8-2014 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:37 PM
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originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: OccamsRazor04


Want me to quote the Pope and destroy your entire argument?

Feel free, lol.

Pope John Paul II said that Purgatory wasn't a place, it was a state.

Exactly what I said. But feel free to destroy away

Which would mean there is no Purgatory.

You claimed there was.

Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead


That means while dead they are in Purgatory .. a place. So don't tell me you said all along it was not a place.

Then you also claim Maccabees is in the Tanakh, it's not. the HEBREW books do not contain it. It's on in some versions of the Septuagint. If you can show me where Jesus quoted Maccabees I will listen, I have never seen that He had.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:38 PM
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originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: OccamsRazor04


Why do you list three outcomes when the catechism you quoted lists two?

Because it lists three:


Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.

1) entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification (Purgatory)
2) entrance into the blessedness of heaven immediately (saints)
3) immediate and everlasting damnation (the condemned)


The Pope said Purgatory is a state of mind while ALIVE .. therefore it can not be a post death place to receive purification. As you already said, you know this, yet you continue to lie, why?



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 09:42 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Get it clear. Purgatory is a state, it is not a place. I've never said anything else.

And Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, which included Maccabees.


Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed their promised Messiah, it follows as a matter of course that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time! (Source)

The Protestant Bibles, post Luther, removed the books of the Septuagint, because they are contrary to Protestant beliefs, but it is 100% obvious that Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, not the Protestant version of the Old Testament.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 10:20 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

Show me from the Old Testament proof of the Jewish belief of purgatory.
I have never seen it.

edit on 16-8-2014 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 10:23 PM
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a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I've already shown it, in 2 Maccabees.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness, that rejects 2 Maccabees?



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