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originally posted by: DupontDeux
Catholics are not Christians? Are you joking?
And here I was thinking that the pope was a pretty christian fella..
I have it on good authority the he thinks that too!
I believe it was condemned as heresy in 553 A.D.
TextWith my family when they were Catholic (I never was) they used to relate abusive stories of the priests demanding money to pray to get there dead relatives to heaven. A doctrine that has no basis in the bible, but really good at being used to extort money via fear and control on the ignorant masses, many of who were sincere.
TextNow I see the same being used on people with "Hell" and even the rapture there is 2 movies coming out this year on this.
In every religious system, except that of the New Testament, the doctrine of purgatory after death and prayers for the dead have always found a place. In ancient and modern times, we find that paganism leaves hope after death for sinners, who, at the time of their departure, are unrepentant, and consciously unfit for heaven. For this purpose a "middle state" was invented in which guilt could be removed in the future world by means of purgatorial pains.
In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was inculcated. But when once this doctrine of purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was opened for all manner of priestly extortions. Prayers for the dead ever go hand in hand with purgatory; but no prayers can be completely efficacious without the interposition of the priests; and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there be special pay for them. Therefore, in every land we find the Pagan priesthood "devouring widow's houses," and making merchandise of the tender feelings of sorrowing relatives, sensitively alive to the immortal happiness of the beloved dead. From all quarters there is one universal testimony as to the burdensome character and the expense of these posthumous devotions. www.mtc.org...
The Origin of Purgatory
There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.
The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and "the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life." Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra-biblical writings and oral history. "So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity" (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed "Christian" doctrines. www.puregospeltruth.com...
There is absolutely NO Biblical support for purgatory
And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46 DRA)
originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Murgatroid
There is absolutely NO Biblical support for purgatory
Wrongo…
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Blue_Jay33
It's still in the Catholic reference works, but they may be less inclined now to base it on 1 Corinthians ch3 vv12-15. I think Catholic scholars now appreciate that this passage is about something else.
originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Blue_Jay33
I pose that question because it is rarely talked about anymore.
Of course people still believe in it, I believed in it even when I was still a Protestant, because it makes sense.
Here's what the Catechism has to say on the matter:
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1021-1022)
So, three outcomes after Christ judges you. Saints go straight to heaven, the condemned go to hell, and the rest of us, who were not in a state of mortal sin, but weren't saints, need a bit of a cleaning before we can be with God, because nothing unholy can be in his presence. And that's all purgatory is, the state we are in until our venial sins are purged from our essence.
All this talk by Reformed Protestants about us being "utterly depraved" and our actions being abominable to God, and then rejecting the notion that we would have to be purified before being brought into God's presence is nonsensical... if he hates you that much, if you're so horrible, why would God want you hanging around him?
either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1021-1022)
Want me to quote the Pope and destroy your entire argument?
Why do you list three outcomes when the catechism you quoted lists two?
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Officially the Catholic Church has never said it exists, and they have said it does NOT exist more recently. It was a money making scheme.
The above reveals clearly the motivation behind purgatory. What loving person would not give up every earthly possession and every penny they own if they though they could end the torment and suffering of their recently deceased loved one, now thought to be in purgatory? The answer is simple. Purgatory is the machine that drives the sinner into the Church, and parts them from their money.
Without the incentive of lessening your burning torment in purgatory, the Church fears it's pews and coffers would be virtually empty. With the laity virtually ignorant of the Bible, the Church could sell their services to every relative of the recently deceased, and extract money indefinitely, indeed for years. How was one to know when God had been satisfied, and the poor suffering sinner released from purgatory to graduate to heaven? What if a relative stopped just short of enough masses, indulgences, etc.? Would the sinner remain in purgatory for the rest of time, simply because there was no one to pay off the priests? Oh, but for that last mass, that last coin in the offering basket!Purgatory is a complete fraud, perpetrated on the ignorant and the vulnerable. www.aloha.net...
Correcto…
it seems most of ATS understand it's fiction from Catholics
even Catholic clergy themselves have distanced themselves from it
originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
Want me to quote the Pope and destroy your entire argument?
Feel free, lol.
Pope John Paul II said that Purgatory wasn't a place, it was a state.
Exactly what I said. But feel free to destroy away
Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead
originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
Why do you list three outcomes when the catechism you quoted lists two?
Because it lists three:
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
1) entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification (Purgatory)
2) entrance into the blessedness of heaven immediately (saints)
3) immediate and everlasting damnation (the condemned)
Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed their promised Messiah, it follows as a matter of course that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time! (Source)