Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

ENOUGH!!!!!

of the bickering.

The personal remarks will stop now!!!!

This is the topic.....
Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

Go After the Ball, Not the Player!
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a reply to: tsingtao

Howdy,

I don't think people enjoy classifying themselves, but I do consider myself an agnostic atheist. I do not see evidence (sufficient or otherwise, really) for the existence or necessity of a higher power or deity. That said, I cannot be everywhere at once and I certainly do not know everything, let alone all of human knowledge. If there is a higher power, it is almost assuredly one that is not described by books that make falsifiable claims that demonstrably break known physics. To clarify, I am about as staunch of an atheist as you'll find, but I remain open to actual observable/tangible evidence. (People claim "holy" experiences, this is as insufficient as eye witness testimony...).

I do fear this is straying a bit too far off topic and I do apologize if I missed your point (truth be told, I'm kind of lost by your comments on music and inner city activities...). That said, perhaps this discussion from an atheist can better help others understand that we're not all homicidal/genocidal maniacs out to make wars. In fact, more secular nations apparently have fewer violent crimes and prisons seem underrepresented in atheists (with respect to the population of the USA)*. (Page 7 for the below link.)
www.pitzer.edu...

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religion causes more violent crimes. I'm saying there is a correlation, nothing else (and I will preempt by saying correlation does not imply causation). Truly, I believe war and violence are products of human, physical issues that are independent of religion or secular thought.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: tsingtao

i would present that the belief in "NO gods" are center to all the atheists.

Believe it or not, atheists don't wake up every morning and start their day thinking about how there is no god.

and then?

lol, are you sure about that? is that some rule or something?

how do they start their day?

like everyone else, in the bathroom?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: tsingtao


i would present that the belief in "NO gods" are center to all the atheists.

That's actually incorrect. Windword is correct.

Atheism is not a belief.

People have beliefs, individuals have beliefs, atheists are individuals connected by only one thing --- a lack of belief in a god.

yeah, both have a common denominator in their mind-set. do or don't.

it's a differential that tends to group automatically.

having individual tastes doesn't matter. does it?

it's like fingerprints but we all have them.

originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: tsingtao

Howdy,

I don't think people enjoy classifying themselves, but I do consider myself an agnostic atheist. I do not see evidence (sufficient or otherwise, really) for the existence or necessity of a higher power or deity. That said, I cannot be everywhere at once and I certainly do not know everything, let alone all of human knowledge. If there is a higher power, it is almost assuredly one that is not described by books that make falsifiable claims that demonstrably break known physics. To clarify, I am about as staunch of an atheist as you'll find, but I remain open to actual observable/tangible evidence. (People claim "holy" experiences, this is as insufficient as eye witness testimony...).

I do fear this is straying a bit too far off topic and I do apologize if I missed your point (truth be told, I'm kind of lost by your comments on music and inner city activities...). That said, perhaps this discussion from an atheist can better help others understand that we're not all homicidal/genocidal maniacs out to make wars. In fact, more secular nations apparently have fewer violent crimes and prisons seem underrepresented in atheists (with respect to the population of the USA)*. (Page 7 for the below link.)
www.pitzer.edu...

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religion causes more violent crimes. I'm saying there is a correlation, nothing else (and I will preempt by saying correlation does not imply causation). Truly, I believe war and violence are products of human, physical issues that are independent of religion or secular thought.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

hello,

you just haven't been touched yet. lots of people weren't believers and changed their minds and hearts.
like i've said before, how can you say God can't break laws He created?
it doesn't make sense.
if He can't, He is not God.

anyway, my ref to music is just an analogy. i think hip-hop and rap are detrimental to society, should we get it off the air and out of public ears?

also, secular nations, all nations have their own problems.

anyone can blame something on anything, lol, and will.

a reply to: tsingtao

Howdy,

I really do think you're getting off topic with this. I'll respond once more, but afterward I think the topic of my personal "beliefs" (and lack thereof) might be better suited in a private message, if you honestly wish to know (although I've pretty much shared and will share the majority of them...).

Lots of believers, too, changed their "minds and hearts." Please do not make the assumption that I have never been religious. I was raised with the freedom of choice, but steered in the direction of religion by my family. Over time, we all kinda lost what little faith we had.

Surely an all-powerful god could break his own laws, I don't disagree with that. See, sound logic is usually the logic that has the fewest unnecessary assumptions. For example, I look at the sum of human knowledge, the advancement in the sciences, and I see possibility, probability that natural means could produce the world we live in. So, I assume the simplest scenario, natural laws built our world. Now, a secular religious person might say, "All right, but a higher power guided those processes." I say, "Why add an extra assumption when there is no evidence for it?" Likewise, why would a god break his own laws when he could simply avoid doing thinks that would make him break his own laws? Superfluous unnecessary assumptions are not usually logically sound (I say usually because I don't like dealing in absolutes, not because I see evidence of the opposite of what I state...).

I disagree that rap and hip-hop are detrimental to society. Some rap and hip-hop has positive messages and music has always been an entertainer of the masses. I think the loss of musical diversity would surely be a greater travesty than the continued existence of rap and hip-hop, despite my own dislike of the musical genres. That said, I think the culture of rap and hip-hop is one that breeds (often) anti-educational and anti-societal sentiments, but this is again only a section (although maybe a large one, I don't know) of the population of artists.

This is where my true feelings on the matter come to play, my opinions based on few facts and a lot of assumptions. I think a lot of violent crime stems from a lack of educational opportunities and a culture that seemingly rejects and condemns education and fundamental tenets of scientific theories. Of course, that isn't the topic of the thread either. War is, and war I think is most often caused by greed or fear.

I agree, all nations, even the most secular of nations, have problems. Like I said, all populations have individuals who are dissatisfied with the societal conditions, psychologically ill, people living in poverty or homeless... You get the idea. There are essentially problems in all populations, but you cannot judge a population solely by examples of specific problem individuals.

I also agree that anyone can blame something on anything, I've seen it happen. I hope by logical and civil discussion that such people understand that perhaps, just perhaps, they are oversimplifying a problem. I oversimplify things a lot too, so I understand that it happens, but problems should certainly be discussed regardless.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

In the end I guess I'd have to personally label myself an agnostic... can't actually say atheist and for a reason....

WTF do I know...

And in that statement is where I find organized religion to be an utter POX on humanity, you see it's not a belief in a deity that is insane, it's the insistence that You the individual know something about it that makes it an insane behavior...

All of modern science ends up leaving us off at a big bang, a singularity, the possibility of extra dimensions we can't perceive which in essence leaves the greatest minds in the world in any direction reaching a point somewhere of... "Duh, I dunno" Without time travel we can not say with 100% anything about previous events, NO ONE CAN and translation and meaning change over time which means again zero CERTAINTY

Yet... a couple of Billion people choose to "KNOW" exactly what G-d wants and worse ACT upon those beliefs in reaction to other humans, that's insane, it's INSANE, it's calling the color of the inside of a room without being able to open a door or even look through a window.

Worse of all it violates directly a top ten damn commandment of every monotheist book... Thou shalt not take the lords name in vain and YES acting for GOD and SPEAKING for GOD is definitely a direct violation of that, so the organized religion obsessed are not only directly lunatics they are also sinners mostly by their own hand.

I have 10 years of religious schooling, some seriously advanced science and math and history study under me...

I also don't know a God damned thing for sure in regards to God and what he wants

and neither does anyone else

originally posted by: criticalhit
In the end I guess I'd have to personally label myself an agnostic... can't actually say atheist and for a reason....

WTF do I know...

Actually, everyone is agnostic. The real meaning of agnostic is "god can't be proven or disproven".

Atheist just means you lean the way of "lack of belief in a god". I am an agnostic atheist.

Maybe there should be a word for: "Don't know, don't care"

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: criticalhit
In the end I guess I'd have to personally label myself an agnostic... can't actually say atheist and for a reason....

WTF do I know...

Actually, everyone is agnostic. The real meaning of agnostic is "god can't be proven or disproven".

Atheist just means you lean the way of "lack of belief in a god". I am an agnostic atheist.

Maybe there should be a word for: "Don't know, don't care"

that would be agnostic atheist.

I imagine that maybe yes, it could be seen as atheists screwing things up, as most mass murder (for religious reasons) are done in the name of God. Or a certain religions version of God. Do I think that it's realistic? No. Do I agree with it? No.

The people make the religion or lack thereof. And killing people for no other reason than them not agreeing with you isn't going to get people to change to your beliefs, or stick with said beliefs. And if they do, it's because they are fearful.

A religion that strikes fear into me, isn't a religion I would want myself or mine to be a part of. But that's just my general viewpoint.

I don't think that atheists just wake up an intend to screw things up for anyone. I don't even think they think that they are doing it, and really, any person with half a brain would say that they aren't messing things up for anyone, they are just being themselves, and if you don't like it, too bad, because while your God might not agree with it, he still loves them. God loves all of his children.

The way I see it, is if God really does exist, he's not what he's said to be in books and stories. And the closest thing we have to him is the Earth, which we are currently destroying. So maybe when you think about it that way, it's not any particular group of people, but rather ALL PEOPLE who should be held accountable for the mass murders brought on by differing religious viewpoints and the destruction of religions.

Sin is the issue, not just atheism. There is much false religion, including false Christians who do not follow the faith of the New Testament. There's Islam, which is a violent and evil, monotheistic but deceptive, Satanic religion, the truth be known, and all you have to do is read all the evil called for against non-Muslims in the Quran to prove this. But it is mankind in love with sin and rebellious against a holy God the root of all problems, sin which comes in all shapes and forms,

John 3:17-21 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

All of the suffering and tragedies suffered by mankind has been a direct result of religion (usually being used as a wrapper for some other agenda, usually power-money related) and lawyers (keeping in mind that lawyers are the larval form of politicians) or, most commonly, both.

originally posted by: Scrutinizing
Sin is the issue, not just atheism. There is much false religion, including false Christians who do not follow the faith of the New Testament. There's Islam, which is a violent and evil, monotheistic but deceptive, Satanic religion, the truth be known, and all you have to do is read all the evil called for against non-Muslims in the Quran to prove this. But it is mankind in love with sin and rebellious against a holy God the root of all problems, sin which comes in all shapes and forms,

John 3:17-21 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

I don't believe any religion is bad. There are just bad people. And no amount of Bible quoting by any person can change that. Don't call the Islamic religion violent and evil. Islam and Christianity are basically one in the same.
Religion is meant to be peaceful and loving, and a form of hope in the majorities time of need. I was friends with people who followed Islamic religion in High School, and they were super nice people. Every religion has extremists but they are not the voice of the whole religion. It's very ignorant and unfair to call the Islamic faith evil or violent because there are some extremists.

a reply to: jtma508

It's impossible to say, at least in the case of Judaism and Christianity, religion is the problem, as never in the history of mankind has mankind, collectively, obeyed the Lord as His word has commanded in scripture, never. Only ever have a small minority done so. Turn on your TV: it's wall-to-wall sin and complete Godlessness on the bulk of all networks, 24x7 a non-spiritual agenda, people completely brainwashed to ways of hell. There's all sort of abuse of religion, fake Christians, as you point out, other material agendas, i.e., common lust and covetousness, but you can't hang the problems of the world on pure religion and faith in the Lord of scripture that has, again, never been tried, never Jesus Christ obeyed in the history of mankind, never even close. And the Bible is clear the world system is evil and destined for destruction, because the world has rejected God, and done so throughout history. So, you're really blaming man's corrupt behavior on a religion, at least in the case Christianity, which condemns the same and is here to tell you the problem is people loving sin and rebellion against God, miserably failing egotists, disobedient, refusing to love God and each other.

1 John 2:15-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

It's impossible to say, at least in the case of Judaism and Christianity, religion is the problem

Rmmmm....

No.

Sorry, but...it is NOT impossible to say that religion and religious followers have wreaked (wrought) havoc in the world for many, many centuries (if not millenia) - and are HUGE contributors to the problem(s). (Welcome to ATS!)

a reply to: hydeman11

Surely an all-powerful god could break his own laws, I don't disagree with that. See, sound logic is usually the logic that has the fewest unnecessary assumptions. For example, I look at the sum of human knowledge, the advancement in the sciences, and I see possibility, probability that natural means could produce the world we live in. So, I assume the simplest scenario, natural laws built our world. Now, a secular religious person might say, "All right, but a higher power guided those processes." I say, "Why add an extra assumption when there is no evidence for it?" Likewise, why would a god break his own laws when he could simply avoid doing thinks that would make him break his own laws? Superfluous unnecessary assumptions are not usually logically sound (I say usually because I don't like dealing in absolutes, not because I see evidence of the opposite of what I state...).

it always so beautiful to see good rational discourse in motion.

I feel that religion as a whole is the downfall on mankind. I mean really. You have a human mind with the ability to reason and rationalize. Among many other countless incredible abilities...
Wake up!!!!! Society has lost it's ability to be "human" .. You are all #ing sheep being led around by a Ludacris fable written ( and rewritten a few times) to manipulate society. Metaphorically I can see where the Bible is a useful tool to lead the nieve and feeble minded into their mundane image of spirituality, but for the love of legos man,, it's not to be taken literally. It's a handbook for doing the right thing,yes. But not reality. Religion was created...BY MAN!!!, to govern masses of people. Look at catholicism. The Romans developed it to control the populus of the lands they were concurring because it was easier than populating them with Romans. People today are the mind#ed remnants of actual intellect. And if your rusting in need of being told.what to think, feel,believe,and how to exist then you have lost your true connection with what the spirit is. Religion is a blind form of government and it's ignorance is going to... May.. Is causing the destruction of our race.
Wake up people!!!

originally posted by: greblok
I feel that religion as a whole is the downfall on mankind. I mean really. You have a human mind with the ability to reason and rationalize. Among many other countless incredible abilities...

I agree with you. And religion IMO is the major hindrince of science.

I want to specify that there is a difference between organized religion and personal faith. I think a person can have personal faith and still be of independent thought ---- believing they were given a brain for the purpose of using it. Not to be a group follower.

I personally no longer believe in any god. Having been on both sides does give perspective.