Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history

Rejecting requires acknowledging.

Lack of belief doesn't work that way.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Howdy,

I certainly agree that the ability to reject a claim is one based in logic, and logic is a construct of humanity that has certain rules and assumptions. The use of logic is not a belief system, much like the use of a shovel (another human tool) or math is not a belief system. Even if it were, though, this system is independent of atheism. For example, consider a hypothetical situation in which a person comes to the conclusion (or starts with the conclusion) that there is no god based on illogical means. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's common with some atheists (no offense, but some atheists are simply illogical and don't understand why they should reject the claim as they do not understand the evidence before them...).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that atheism doesn't make any claims, it is a singular idea (and thus cannot be a system by itself), and any other beliefs of an individual atheistic could differ entirely from any other individual's.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

originally posted by: Annee
Rejecting requires acknowledging.

Lack of belief doesn't work that way.

Not always. I could not reject the idea of a thing spaghetti monster until I heard of the meme--I did not believe but had neither heard if its existence either. Is that unbelief or ignorance of it or both?

However, now that I have heard of it, my lack of belief in it must include an element of both rejection of the premise and acknowledgement that the premise exists. You cannot address a certain premise without acknowledging its existence, such as you have in this thread. You acknowledge the existence of Christianity and have shared why you reject the premise therein. One cannot do otherwise and still be a thoughtful person.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't consider it rejection. I don't consider it at all.

I do have belief that lacks belief in a god.

It's like you want me to compare it to nothingness.

originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: NavyDoc

Howdy,

I certainly agree that the ability to reject a claim is one based in logic, and logic is a construct of humanity that has certain rules and assumptions. The use of logic is not a belief system, much like the use of a shovel (another human tool) or math is not a belief system. Even if it were, though, this system is independent of atheism. For example, consider a hypothetical situation in which a person comes to the conclusion (or starts with the conclusion) that there is no god based on illogical means. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's common with some atheists (no offense, but some atheists are simply illogical and don't understand why they should reject the claim as they do not understand the evidence before them...).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that atheism doesn't make any claims, it is a singular idea (and thus cannot be a system by itself), and any other beliefs of an individual atheistic could differ entirely from any other individual's.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

But I would suggest that a belief system requires no more practitioners than a single person who uses it. It does not matter if every athiest is different, it is a system of thought (a though you are right, some don't know why they don't believe) to that person. A belief system does not need more than one adherent or a set if rules. A belief system is also how each and every individual looks at his environment and are often unique to the individual.

A belief system has more than one definition. How I used it is in the context of how an individual looked at the world and, as such, was no different than other people who want to force their beliefs upon those around them.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't consider it rejection. I don't consider it at all.

I do have belief that lacks belief in a god.

It's like you want me to compare it to nothingness.

But you do consider it, in detail, and have shared this with us multiple times. Have you not explained why you dislike and mistrust religion?

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't consider it rejection. I don't consider it at all.

I do have belief that lacks belief in a god.

It's like you want me to compare it to nothingness.

But you do consider it, in detail, and have shared this with us multiple times. Have you not explained why you dislike and mistrust religion?

I've relayed my experiences through life.

Life experiences involve a lot of things.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't consider it rejection. I don't consider it at all.

I do have belief that lacks belief in a god.

It's like you want me to compare it to nothingness.

But you do consider it, in detail, and have shared this with us multiple times. Have you not explained why you dislike and mistrust religion?

I've relayed my experiences through life.

Life experiences involve a lot of things.

And they influence everyone on how he or she looks at the world and how they make decisions and evaluate situations. No one, even Spock, is a creature of pure logic.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Howdy,

Certainly, each person is welcome to their own belief system (and I can almost guarantee that no two people share the same belief system, regardless of how similar some of their beliefs, and I'm glad to hear you have a similar opinion on such). That said, you did not argue that atheists had belief systems, you argued that atheism WAS a belief system.

This is what I do not agree with. One rejected claim cannot make a system. A system is by definition comprised of multiple components. One component is not enough for a system, even if you want to consider a rejection of a claim a belief (which I do not consider to be the case).

If I told you that blue was my favorite colour, that does not make it a belief system. That's just a fact. I find evidence for claims of deities insufficient. That too is a fact. I don't consider these my beliefs, but they do influence how I view the world. Together, you get a clearer understanding of who I am as a human, yes, but that is still not a system of belief.

Now, I do disagree with pushy people trying to force beliefs. I think all people should be able to make informed decisions. That said, demonstrable facts are demonstrable, and if someone chooses to make a claim against demonstrable facts, they are indeed wrong regardless of their right to be wrong.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

a reply to: NavyDoc

Not believing in a god or having a religious bases for one thing or another is not a belief system.

Not all belief systems have anything to do with a god or need a religious bias of one kind or another.

originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: NavyDoc

Howdy,

Certainly, each person is welcome to their own belief system (and I can almost guarantee that no two people share the same belief system, regardless of how similar some of their beliefs, and I'm glad to hear you have a similar opinion on such). That said, you did not argue that atheists had belief systems, you argued that atheism WAS a belief system.

This is what I do not agree with. One rejected claim cannot make a system. A system is by definition comprised of multiple components. One component is not enough for a system, even if you want to consider a rejection of a claim a belief (which I do not consider to be the case).

If I told you that blue was my favorite colour, that does not make it a belief system. That's just a fact. I find evidence for claims of deities insufficient. That too is a fact. I don't consider these my beliefs, but they do influence how I view the world. Together, you get a clearer understanding of who I am as a human, yes, but that is still not a system of belief.

Now, I do disagree with pushy people trying to force beliefs. I think all people should be able to make informed decisions. That said, demonstrable facts are demonstrable, and if someone chooses to make a claim against demonstrable facts, they are indeed wrong regardless of their right to be wrong.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

I have to concede to you all of those points. I cannot disagree with them.

In that particular post, my intent was to point out that some athiests are just the same as some Christians in that they are just as eager to push their--for lack of a better expression--belief system (or values or wants or sense of social justice) onto their fellow man.

You are correct in that atheism is just a single data point in what makes up the whole entire psyche of an individual.

For that matter, so is theism. Belief in a god is just one data point and theists are just as varied and individual as athiests.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't consider it rejection. I don't consider it at all.

I do have belief that lacks belief in a god.

It's like you want me to compare it to nothingness.

But you do consider it, in detail, and have shared this with us multiple times. Have you not explained why you dislike and mistrust religion?

I've relayed my experiences through life.

Life experiences involve a lot of things.

And they influence everyone on how he or she looks at the world and how they make decisions and evaluate situations. No one, even Spock, is a creature of pure logic.

You always have to have the last word, don't you?

I'm not gonna get into a metaphysical discussion on this thread.

I've had OBEs since first memory, I know there's something more then what's here, I wanted to belong, I wanted to be like most everyone else so I went through the motions. Fact is I'm more now who I was born then ever before, and I never really believed. So, influence is really quite debatable.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't consider it rejection. I don't consider it at all.

I do have belief that lacks belief in a god.

It's like you want me to compare it to nothingness.

But you do consider it, in detail, and have shared this with us multiple times. Have you not explained why you dislike and mistrust religion?

I've relayed my experiences through life.

Life experiences involve a lot of things.

And they influence everyone on how he or she looks at the world and how they make decisions and evaluate situations. No one, even Spock, is a creature of pure logic.

You always have to have the last word, don't you?

I'm not gonna get into a metaphysical discussion on this thread.

I've had OBEs since first memory, I know there's something more then what's here, I wanted to belong, I wanted to be like most everyone else so I went through the motions. Fact is I'm more now who I was born then ever before, and I never really believed. So, influence is really quite debatable.

And your experiences influenced who you are now, in fact "more" of who you were before as you say. Can you say that you would be the same person now without your "OBE" experiences?

a reply to: NavyDoc

Howdy,

Apologies for misinterpreting your intentions, then. As I said, I generally am in agreement with your sentiment and logic.

I agree, some atheists have become quite militant, many do not understand why they are atheists, and most importantly (and sadly) some cannot defend or articulate their own reasoning. Like you say, this is a common problem in Christianity, but I'd say it is also a common problem with all groups of peoples.

I find this trend troubling, and it certainly adds to the confusion of what it means to be an atheist. People who do not understand why they think the way they do in a group poison that group and are easy targets for outgroups. As is the case with this thread, one bad example (a non-religiously affiliated individual committing genocide) can be used to attack all atheists because of the confusion over whether or not atheism is indeed a belief system. I too find this logic troubling.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: NavyDoc

Howdy,

Apologies for misinterpreting your intentions, then. As I said, I generally am in agreement with your sentiment and logic.

I agree, some atheists have become quite militant, many do not understand why they are atheists, and most importantly (and sadly) some cannot defend or articulate their own reasoning. Like you say, this is a common problem in Christianity, but I'd say it is also a common problem with all groups of peoples.

I find this trend troubling, and it certainly adds to the confusion of what it means to be an atheist. People who do not understand why they think the way they do in a group poison that group and are easy targets for outgroups. As is the case with this thread, one bad example (a non-religiously affiliated individual committing genocide) can be used to attack all atheists because of the confusion over whether or not atheism is indeed a belief system. I too find this logic troubling.

Sincere regards,
Hydeman

I agree and I find it confusing too. I've been accused of not being an athiest because I'm not an anti-theist.

Obviously many non athiests do no understand atheism as evidenced by the assumption that athiests are "anti-god."

However, OTOH, some athiests make atheism into a belief system of sorts that seem just as fanatical, just as hateful, and just as pushy as the most asinine theist.

As you wisely have said, there are jerks on both sides of the situation.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I agree and I find it confusing too. I've been accused of not being an athiest because I'm not an anti-theist.

That may be true, but I've had my doubts about the sincerity of your, so called, atheism because of the way you have disparagingly generalized and insulted atheists as a whole in these threads, as if they were some rare and unwanted phenomena. I find that confusing.

.........Not to mention how you come ruthlessly to the rescue of attacks against Catholicism like a white knight in shining armor.

There is a difference between being anti-theist and anti-behavior done in the name of God.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

I agree and I find it confusing too. I've been accused of not being an athiest because I'm not an anti-theist.

That may be true, but I've had my doubts about the sincerity of your, so called, atheism because of the way you have disparagingly generalized and insulted atheists as a whole in these threads, as if they were some rare and unwanted phenomena. I find that confusing.

.........Not to mention how you come ruthlessly to the rescue of attacks against Catholicism like a white knight in shining armor.

See? Just like I pointed out. I am no true athiest because i do not harbor hate nor resentment for theism. For some atheists it seems, there IS a dogma that one must adhere to in order to be a "true" athiest. Thanks for proving my point.

I have neither disparaged not generalized against athiests, just pointing out the hypocrisy and bigotry of some. Christians have their share of bigots and hypocrites as well and, like athiests, they have decent and nice people too.

As for Catholicism, I don't agree with them, otherwise I'd still be one. However, I do like truth and logic and will point out nonsense and untruth when I see it. I do the same to the anti-Semites I see as well. The nonsense and prejudice I see claimed as "knowledge" is laughable. If you dislike someone dislike them for something that is true, not made up. Sometimes the anti-theism is as ridiculous and false as any Goebbles propaganda piece.

Why Catholics and not evangelicals or Mormons? I don't understand them either. I cannot point out untruth when I don't know what the truth is. I couldn't tell you what was true or made up bigoted nonsense where Mormons are concerned. Do they wear magical underwear? I dunno. The have a "garment" they wear, but do they consider it magical, or bullet proof, or even, as I've heard from anti-Mormons, Satanic? I dunno. I doubt it, but I don't know what they are taught or believe.

originally posted by: Annee
There is a difference between being anti-theist and anti-behavior done in the name of God.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. I dislike bad and criminal behavior regardless if done by an athiest or theist--I don't differentiate between the two. Many apparently do differentiate, however.

a reply to: NavyDoc

See? Just like I pointed out. I am no true athiest because i do not harbor hate nor resentment for theism. For some atheists it seems, there IS a dogma that one must adhere to in order to be a "true" athiest. Thanks for proving my point.

Now you're putting words in my mouth! I said that you insulted and disparagingly generalized all atheists as if they were a strange group of undesirables.

I have neither disparaged not generalized against atheists, just pointing out the hypocrisy and bigotry of some. Christians have their share of bigots and hypocrites as well and, like athiests, they have decent and nice people too.

Now you're just being dishonest. We went through this in another thread, where you attacked all atheists in general, and I accused you of being a "fake atheist poser". I assumed that's why you brought it up in your previous post, being accused of NOT being an atheist, because you're still butt hurt that you got called out, and not just by me, but by several "atheists" in that thread.

So, you can stop with your righteous indignation of being persecuted for not hating theists enough, okay?! This is about how YOU seek out and attack atheists on a regular basis!