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Are all the suiciders really unforgivable sinners ? is that the actual will of God? who said that?

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posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:42 PM
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The Peace of God to all that belong the Light,
Dear Readers,

The actor Robin Williams, who committed suicide this week under the effect of coc aine addition busted by a chronic depression , inspired the life of millions of people along his Actors career.

His career was the one of iconic positive roles in films: He portrayed an inspirational Poetry teacher that make his students feel passion for the subject, a divorced man trying to parent his children beyond legal constraints, a psychiatrist looking for the cure of a paralyzing illness with incredible compassion for his patients, a friendly naïve extraterrestrial willing to live in earth and scared of the xenophobia that created by the media against aliens, a person that is able to travel to the great beyond in search for answers to the most transcendental questions of the human condition, or a Robot that, in his seek for sense about human existence, experiences a gradual transformation along more than two centuries of technological advance toward Automat, android and finally alive being.

Now, in death, he is still inspiring many to talk openly about depression, an illness that has been reached levels of epidemic in the world.
www.yahoo.com...

There were many other actors or actresses along history that sadly ended in suicide for a combination of Career pressures, depression and drugs: Marylyn Monroe, Brad Renfo, Dana Plato, Brigette Andersen, Anissa Jones, Judy Garland, Jonathan Brandis, River Phoenix, Christopher Petiet, etc.

popcrush.com...

Robin Williams was not only a good man in the screen, he helped colleagues in difficult moments. My prayer now is that the established religion can accept that suicide has mental health implications, when it does not occur in the middle of crimes, and is not fair to continue demonizing who ever have fallen in life in such condition, in the horrendous way traditionally has been by many churches. www.usmagazine.com... ium=referral

Two of the great men in History that suffered , after their death in suicide, the discrimination traditionally granted by the official religion establishment to their memories were The Greatest Dutch modern Artist Vincent Van gogh and the Greatest Modernist South American (Columbian) Poet Jose Asuncion Silva.www.poemhunter.com...

The poems of Silva represent a chant about the fascination for the beauty of spiritual love and the rapport inspired in nature and simple things of life, as well as the pleasure that verses in just the act to think in a Poetic way. All this is hymn of freedom against the materialism that has taken away from us many beautiful things that are granted for free by God.

www.poetry-archive.com...

Jose Asuncion Silva was buried in a cemetery for Suiciders in Sta Fe de Bogota since his body was not accepted in the official Catholic cemetery of the city due to the circumstances of his death.

www.poetry-archive.com...

The Paintings of Van Gogh represent an incredible manifold of color, rhythm, motion and light that invite us to enter in another dimension where only what is beautiful of this world is magically projected by the Artist through the means of brush strokes that map everything into a dreamed universe where places, objects and impressions all mix with feelings and emotions.

www.biography.com...

www.vangoghgallery.com...

Where these three great men, among many others in History, fairly treated by the ones that believe to be in position to judge who deserves to have a honorable memory and who not? is that really theologically consistent or Lack of Compassion ?
or
perhaps a dogma carried out by who are trying to defend the social status quo that sometimes is questioned by visionaries or free thinkers? whose only actual sin is perhaps to have opposed a collective mentality in many aspects that was morally ill on his time and place?



Gospel of St Luke 6:42
How can you think of saying, 'Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.


Is this really the will of God, or the distorted interpretations of who plenty of defects think they have the moral authority to see the way to rule others lives?



Gospel of St John 8: When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, "Where are your accusers? Didn't even one of them condemn you?"
"No, Lord," she said. And Jesus said, "Neither do I. Go and sin no more."
"



Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 8/15/2014 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:46 PM
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This is one of the reasons that I hate Christianity. Christianity pushes the idea that if you commit suicide you go to hell. We know this isn't the case. God would not be like that.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:51 PM
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This is one of the worst parts of Christianity, demonizing someone with a mental illness who is pushed to suicide because of a chemical imbalance in their brain. Why would you do this? Yes, suicide is painful for the people the person leaves behind, but what about the pain the person was going through while they were alive? They couldn't deal with it and just wanted it to stop. Depression is a very scary mental illness because it makes you think your friends and family don't care about you and you go it alone, which makes it worse and worse. Suicide victims need to be mourned for the loss and then remembered fondly for their memories. Do not dwell on the end, but keep them in your thoughts and hearts from the good times.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: amazing

I am a Christian and I do not believe that people who commit suicide are condemned to hell. I attend a large, fairly conservative church and I don't know anyone that holds to this belief.

It isn't for us to decide or to judge.

And... honestly. How would one even define suicide. One could argue Jesus committed suicide as he knew full well that his actions would lead to his death.

Yes, life is precious. But we are human there was only one that lived without sin. We ALL sin. God loves us more than that.

I know not all agree, but I feel I am actually in the majority when I say that I do not believe suicide is some automatic ticket to Hell. None of us are in the position to judge this, or any other suicide anyway.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: amazing

On the other hand... a few of us believe the Christian Faith has it all wrong because they envision the outcome so easy and soft. Such a ...nice way to have to pay for such a thing. If only I believed the outcome would be so nice to endure...

Some belief systems follow the line of thought that suicide begets far worse than eternal life still lived, simply in a worse place, and some things are far far worse than simply dying to meet that fate.

Just my beliefs and my world view, as we each have our own unique one in life.

* you can be sure, if reports ever say I off'ed myself? I was murdered! I'd sooner kick a tiger in the chops and bend down to add the raspberries to it, and let the kitty eat me, than kill myself by my own hand. I won't pay the price I believe that carries.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:56 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

What if someone is mentally disabled and they kill themselves due to it?
What if a blind, deaf child who cannot take communion (or whatever it is they do) dies first?
What if a normal person due to a brain injury commits suicide?
Does god take all these things into consideration too?

If yes, then it seems there are many 'loopholes' into getting into heaven or not.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: VegHead

Many Christians view it as murdering yourself, which violates one of the ten commandments. Then since you are dead, you cannot ask for forgiveness so therefore you die with an unclean slate and are sent directly to hell. As someone raised Catholic, this is what I was taught.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:00 PM
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originally posted by: AnteBellum
a reply to: The angel of light

What if someone is mentally disabled and they kill themselves due to it?
What if a blind, deaf child who cannot take communion (or whatever it is they do) dies first?
What if a normal person due to a brain injury commits suicide?
Does god take all these things into consideration too?

If yes, then it seems there are many 'loopholes' into getting into heaven or not.



Exactly...

God's love and compassion for us is so much bigger than we can even comprehend.

That's why I feel it is very short-sighted and small-minded to assume that anyone that does X, Y, or Z goes to Hell.

God see the big picture. And it's a bigger picture than we are even capable of envisioning. And He loves us. Someone that commits suicide, in my belief, absolutely does NOT automatically go to Hell.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


Yes, suicide is painful for the people the person leaves behind, but what about the pain the person was going through while they were alive?


Well said!


I person who is suffering to the point of taking there own life, has a pain that can't be described in words!

Those who have never been there and experienced the emotional conflict, just won't get it no matter how hard they try.

I've been there..............and quite frankly, If ever I had a chance to experience true hell? It was dealing with the raw emotions I fought with on a daily basis as to whether or not to end my existence.....

For me? Religion just made it worse.....



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:04 PM
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Nice topic. I watched a few documentaries about the "sin of suicide", and in the beginning it was not a sin. Church higher ups changed the rules. One source " crouchfoundation.org... ". History Channel also had a show about this.



www.youtube.com... If you are struggling this video has few empowering words.
edit on 15-8-2014 by Eyemin because: Clean up

edit on 15-8-2014 by Eyemin because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:07 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

I think one logic that's hard to argue with (if you believe you must ask for forgiveness post-transgression) is that you can't ask for forgiveness nor repent after you are dead, according to Christian logic.

Like you said, this doesn't take in to account the very real psychological horrors that afflict so many of us that influence the choices we make. People without severe diagnosed depression can not possibly know what it's like any more than a man can know what childbirth feels like. It's not "being sad". It's deeper and far worse. Most people who suffer can acknowledge that they have great lives with people who love them but depression cuts through all of that and hits you in your soul.

I suffer from an order that includes severe depression (I say "order" because it's not a "disorder" as other people call it) and I make it day to day by relating it to the cycles of nature and the goddess. When I'm on a high, I'm waxing, when I'm normal, I'm full, and when I'm on a low, I'm waning. Each of those are beyond my control but I'm able to harness them in a healthy way. If I couldn't sort it out like that, I probably would have offed myself on one my lows by now. It's not something a person can be held entirely accountable and especially not blamed for on a moral and ethical level.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:07 PM
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This place is a school for the soul. We are supposed to learn from it. Bailing out of school isn't advisable, we will never get to the next class and graduate from this place. Starting all over is not a wise thing, even if it seems appropriate at the time. Things can get better, most people's higher than needed expectations of themselves causes depression to get worse. Eating properly can lessen depression for most people, chemistry of food is important for controlling this. Avoiding some foods thought to be bad for us can cause more harm than good. Altering the diet a lot can also cause imbalances if done too rapidly, we need time to acclimate. Some imbalances cannot be controlled by diet, these need the help of professionals. Seeing a specialist, not just your GP is important with that. But do not discount what your GP says and ask these people if there are any dietary changes that can help. If they know their stuff then they can steer you in the right direction without medications sometimes.

We need to try to try to watch the people we care for, we need to discuss things that are important with them and pay attention. Much of these problems, especially with kids suicide, can be remidied if we are not so wrapped up into our lives that we cannot see what is happening in theirs. We need to be more observant in everything and forget about getting up in the world. Even if we do not step on toes on our climb up the ladders, we can hurt others by ignorance and our desire to obtain what we really don't need to live.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:14 PM
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Well if you understand the Bible for what it is (Greek mythology) you realize this "Hell" doesn’t exist as most people perceive it to be.. And so it's not a valid question to begin with.(It's basically a state of consciousness )


Suicide is and extremely selfish act and the next few generations of family members are doomed to repeat it or be severely psychologically damaged as a result of it.

Very cowardly... We all share in this human experience and we should reach out to these people and learn how we can treat such severe mental illness from a biological perspective.

Treatments consisting of natural psychedelics will be the approach in the near future once our civilization wakes up to their healing properties. There are a small handful of research facilities that have been around for decades paving the way for this (M.A.P.S.org) including treating victims of PTSD with mushrooms and patients seeing real long lasting effects of increased sense of wellbeing, deepened sense of spirituality, and the ability to self-actualize..

Hypnotherapy in conjunction with naturally occurring hallucinogens will be our planets new medicine in generations to come.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:14 PM
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Unfortunately it seems many of you are confusing suicide with being a Christian mortal sin...it is in fact, a Catholic belief. Standard Christian doctrine hardly discusses suicide, actually. Same as the Deadly Sins, though hopefully most know that, they are also Catholic creations, not Biblical.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:20 PM
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originally posted by: knightsofcydonia
Well if you understand the Bible for what it is (Greek mythology) you realize this "Hell" doesn’t exist as most people perceive it to be.. And so it's not a valid question to begin with.(It's basically a state of consciousness )


Actually if you understand hell for what it is, you'd understand that it doesn't exist in the bible.


Suicide is and extremely selfish act and the next few generations of family members are doomed to repeat it or be severely psychologically damaged as a result of it.


No these people are suffering from a mental illness. They cannot help their actions. That is like calling someone dying from malaria selfish for not getting better. The only reason family members would be doomed to repeat this action is because depression is hereditary so the person's children can develop depression and end up killing themselves later in life because of it.


Very cowardly... We all share in this human experience and we should reach out to these people and learn how we can treat such severe mental illness from a biological perspective.

Treatments consisting of natural psychedelics will be the approach in the near future once our civilization wakes up to their healing properties. There are a small handful of research facilities that have been around for decades paving the way for this (M.A.P.S.org) including treating victims of PTSD with mushrooms and patients seeing real long lasting effects of increased sense of wellbeing, deepened sense of spirituality, and the ability to self-actualize..

Hypnotherapy in conjunction with naturally occurring hallucinogens will be our planets new medicine in generations to come.


In this I am in agreement. Our treatment of mental illnesses is downright barbaric. Chalk it up to psychiatry being a relatively new scientific discipline, but we really need to work harder on understanding these illnesses.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:23 PM
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originally posted by: flitzanu
Unfortunately it seems many of you are confusing suicide with being a Christian mortal sin...it is in fact, a Catholic belief. Standard Christian doctrine hardly discusses suicide, actually. Same as the Deadly Sins, though hopefully most know that, they are also Catholic creations, not Biblical.


This is an excellent point.


The concepts of heaven versus hell are rarely discussed in my church (more understood as the presence of versus the absence of God). There isn't really a hierarchy of sin. We are all sinners. We all need His forgiveness.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to:
a reply to: Krazysh0t



Yes, suicide is painful for the people the person leaves behind, but what about the pain the person was going through while they were alive?


Well said!

seeker1963


I am not going to conduct this thread in some specific direction, I think it must be a space of free expression of all the doubts and concerns that many people have about the way Religion treats Suicide.

However, I am sensible to the fact that your comment has put a finger in the wound.

A suicide of the characteristics of Robin Williams had a really serious medical condition of depression, that can create a lot of painful sufferings in the mind, but he also was suffering of first stages of Parkinson, as the link below says.

movies.msn.com...

Nevertheless, unfortunately the way Robin Williams, as many other actors or actresses before him, found to escape from that so challenging situation was even worst.

The consumption of a substance ( Cocaine) that although has anesthetic properties, in the long run destroys completely the balance of the mind, a sure path toward insanity, was possibly the most determinant trigger of this tragedy.

Clinical Depression alone it is extremely painful , devastating in many aspects, but not really a type of Insanity, but in combination with a powerful stupefacient can easily put the mind out of control or the organism in complete lack of possibilities to maintain balance.

Now, all suicides of this type don't occur under the effect of Cocaine, Van gogh never consumed it but he was a chronic drinker, and other famous figures have arrived to it through consumption of barbiturates, amphetamines or heroine. The common denominator is to have chosen a wrong way of affront or deal with the depression.

It is interesting to ask What could happened if these unfortunate suiciders, for instance, have known meditation techniques? or applied special contemplative prayer methods? or perhaps could be more carefully monitored by physicians or specialists in clinics or Hospitals and not by their own living alone their illness? did that may change the final outcome?

if somebody might offered them al alternative to be consumed in vices to escape from the Pain? Why many people that is under depression prefer to start to consume illicit drugs that to go to a professional psychiatrist or psychologist? is the so high cost of those services or therapies also part of the terrible equation of tragedies like this one?

What is the weight of Society in a Tragic death as this one? is all the responsibility just of the suicider? I don't know if Robin Williams had strong spiritual beliefs, but his last wife's account certifies that he was a spiritual person :

celebrity.yahoo.com...

I know Van Gogh was a very devoted Christian, even he was a missioner in the mines of Belgium in his twenties. It was precisely the feeling of impotence to do something to fix the horrible inhuman conditions of work of that people what triggered the first manifestations of his schizophrenia.


The established Protestant Christianism, in times of Van gogh in Belgium, sent him to console the workers of the mines with a promise of a better life in the great beyond for all of them, but was not interested at all into find effective ways to change those negative circumstances of over exploitation of human beings that existed there. That contradiction created terrible frustration in the mind of the Artist.


Thanks for your comment,

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 8/15/2014 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 01:57 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

As someone who's been down that road, let me tell you.
I'm not going to think once about sin
I'm not going to think about my family
I'm not going to think about my friends
I'm not going to think about the future to be
In worst case scenarios, it builds to the point that "you do" and "don't think about your actions".
Put it short, it's a black hole in your head, yet a choice. Sorry to put it that way, but when I wanted to leave? Then I wanted to.

When my friend(s) tell me they want to suicide, I don't cite them scripture, nor tell them "to stay", I tell them how much I enjoy talking, hanging out, and having fun with them, and that it's solely their choice to depart. Why? Because I've been there. And there's no medication, no doctor, no religion that could have done anything to help me, or them, it came from myself to decide if I wanted to continue to seek purpose, adventure and mystery of what my future holds.

I strongly advocate choice, but acknowledge that what you put in, comes the output. But I won't condemn you for your choice, and neither should an "all loving, all forgiving god."



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 02:05 PM
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How do any of you know that is was NOT gods will for a person to commit suicide. If you believe that god takes us when it's our time then remember, he takes people in a million different ways. Some barbaric some less so. Suicide is just another way, and another lesson learned about life here on earth.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

I look at the religious ban on suicide in this manner. Religions are often used as slave conditioning. Teaching the slave to be passive and docile to comfort them in their oppression. The taboo on suicide goes along with this. The slave masters do not want all the slaves to take the peaceful way out of misery and opt for the after life too soon. They are needed to do all the slave work for the masters. So yeah, heaven for hard working slaves but hell for slaves that quit to early.




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