Ukraine and Russian forces engage

FWIW, I listened to a report on Fox News earlier saying the Russian armor column they were showing yesterday on the Russian side, had crossed in the night and Ukraine had destroyed it.

I wasn't sure what to think tho, and busy on the Ferguson story anyway, but they made the report in a passing and almost casual way that left me wondering what it was all about. That isn't something I'd expect to hear in a casual report like it was.

originally posted by: MessageforAll
I suspect that France and Germany will abandon ship with Europe if push comes to shove with Russia. So far the EU has done nothing but worsen the French economy and Germany is pretty much in the same boat.

This is only pure speculation, but still.

Indeed, it is just "speculation" and poorly thought out speculation at that.

Seeing as Germany and France pretty much call the shots in Europe and it was from the Council of Ministers meeting that the sanctions were agreed - they were present and voted in favour - I see no reason at all that France or Germany would leave Europe over anything, much less this.

Contrary to your belief, neither France nor Germany are "dependent" on Russia. They do a lot of trade, yes, but it is hardly the be all and end all.

So basically we still have nothing, only some stuff which might well be just propaganda from the West/Kiev to discredit Russia, stop the convoy and to disrupt possible supplies which may have or not may have taken place (I`m sure they have, but maybe not just now)...

So it`s only Kiev and the West say stuff and no footage...if it happened by night (claimed by Kiev) we should have some footage by now...

Claims, claims, claims...if they don`t proof them now they lose even more credibility, as if there`s much left...

We just have to wait again before we get the answer, real footage should come immediately, fake ones take longer of course.

a reply to: jedi_hamster

pics taken on the ukrainian soil

Mostly russian vehicles destroyed.

a reply to: Xcathdra

As for your pics or it didn't happen bs its getting childish. Apparently its all pro Russian supporters have left when trying to dismiss relevant info.

Ukraine claims it's true, Russia claims it's false. Seeing as how Ukraine is the one making the accusations, then it's up to them to provide evidence.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: MessageforAll

A reported sighting by two Western journalists isn't proof.

But reports by Russian Journalists can be taken at face value? I see....

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
However, IMO Russia has every right to install military intervention for humanitarian purpose in Eastern Ukraine.

No, they do not "have the right" - only if the Ukraine Government requests it or if authorised by the UNSC can they intervene - anything else is simply an illegal incursion.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
They have the right to vote for independence from Ukraine as per democracy.

Quite, but within the law, not by havung Russian backed gunmen seize buildings and declare an independent state overnight, then hold a vote that even Russia ignored and which was blatantly frigged.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
Those people have been bombed and all sorts from the supposed government of their land all because they voted for independence due to persecution.

No, they didn't vote for anything - the vote was a fraud and it's sad you've fallen for it.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
Seeing as the US has aided other factions and lands with military intervention (Syria. Kurds etc to name a few), that makes the US utter hypocrites for even criticising Russia for doing so.

Syria is a totally different situation - there, the Government began firing on unarmed protesters prompting the uprising and then, all they wanted was to not live under an authoritarian regime, not break away.

The Kurds are an autonomous region within Iraq and it is part of a constitutional settlement. Even the Baghdad Government is happy for the Kurds to be armed - quite frankly, they are the best organised fighting group in the country.

In the case of the Ukraine, you have foreign backed fightings taking over public buildings, declaring some dodgy "People's Republic", hold a vote widely regarded as a fraud, took hostages etc etc.

Hardly the same.

a reply to: MessageforAll

And once again, those fabulous BRICs get trotted out again...

Read this thread

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jedi_hamster
Speaking of BS off topic comments feel free to point out in your post anything that is on topic...

As for your pics or it didn't happen bs its getting childish. Apparently its all pro Russian supporters have left when trying to dismiss relevant info.

Here is a concept - post facts which refute the claims being made. You have reports stating media personnel witnessed the Russian military vehicles crossing into Ukraine. You have the drivers of the convoys who are giving inconsistent statements about whether they are paid or are doing it for free, not to mention red cross officials who cant provide detailed info of Russia's supposed aid convoy.

You have Russia diverting the aid convoy to a border crossing controlled by rebels, which violated the agreement with Ukraine.

All on the record by both sides.

So feel free to support your no pics claims.

all we've got is a ton of BS flying and stinking from all directions. without hard evidence - like pictures taken obviously on ukrainian soil, showing russian military vehicles, all your 'relevant information' is just a damn hearsay.

and i'll give you - once again - an example of what a hearsay is. saddam and his weapons of mass destruction.

only this time many more people may die because 'someone said he saw something'. claims made by people without being backed by hard evidence are NOT relevant info in this matter. they are, obviously, an important clue that has to be INVESTIGATED, but until hard evidence is found and made available for public scrutiny, NO CLAIMS can be made when millions of lives are at stake.

and that's precisely what kiev is doing, what the west propaganda machine is doing, and what you are doing. making claims.

seriously, with all the respect, go to hell.

a reply to: MessageforAll

An intriguing thought re: a break-up of the European Union. Perhaps the underlying intent of this whole mess in the first place?

With the Euro-zone teetering as well, this could send the whole thing crashing down and, as you say, Russia could pick up 'allies' if not outright satellites as a result.

The question is who benefits more from that potential break-up? Russia or the west?

originally posted by: maghun
a reply to: jedi_hamster

pics taken on the ukrainian soil

Mostly russian vehicles destroyed.

That doesn`t look recently (rusty), looks more like Ukraine (also Russian) gear at the end and Ukrainian flag...?, and at the beginning I don`t see much artillery shelling proof.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The EU is no where near breaking up - and this is coming from a staunch, anti-EU Brit. If anything, a crisis would push it further together, not break it up. The Eurozone crisis from a few years ago is proof of that - it ended up with those countries in the Eurozone forging even closer bonds between each other, with German at the centre calling the shots.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: maghun

absolutely will they be made public not immediately.

Thats right youll see how much black mail value it has before going public with it.

a reply to: stumason

Syria is a totally different situation - there, the Government began firing on unarmed protesters prompting the uprising and then, all they wanted was to not live under an authoritarian regime, not break away.

And those U.S. funded rebels turned out to be such a nice bunch of guys, didn't they....The U.S. funds and arms madmen all over the world if it suits their agenda, so yes it's rank hypocrisy on the U.S's part.

a reply to: Flatcoat

And if you genuinely think there is some homogeneous group of rebels and not a patch work of various different groups with varying ideologies, ranging from the moderate, inclusive FSA to the nutjobs in Al Nusra and ISIS, then you don't have a clue what you're chatting about.

Western support was limited to non-lethal supplies and even then, only went to groups identified as moderate, hence why for months, they were all crying out about the lack of support coming from the West (remember that? probably not...). Weapons and money supplied to the more extreme Jihadi groups actually came from Qatar and Saudi.

a reply to: stumason
Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.

It was my understanding that about this time last year, the Germans were about to have a citizen vote on continuing being part of the Eurozone. That the surveys showed the majority had had enough and wanted out.

That 'vote' ended up cancelled.

A stronger bond resulted? OK.

Still, this changes the equation, don't you think? That bond could be revisited, at least in some circles.

Possible?

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: stumason

Syria is a totally different situation - there, the Government began firing on unarmed protesters prompting the uprising and then, all they wanted was to not live under an authoritarian regime, not break away.

And those U.S. funded rebels turned out to be such a nice bunch of guys, didn't they....The U.S. funds and arms madmen all over the world if it suits their agenda, so yes it's rank hypocrisy on the U.S's part.

Those backed rebels have been fighting ISIS longer than anybody else. So yes turns out they are nice bunch of guys. They have not managed to turn the local population against them by stealing everything they could get their hands on like those lovely rebels in Ukraine.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
An intriguing thought re: a break-up of the European Union. Perhaps the underlying intent of this whole mess in the first place?
With the Euro-zone teetering as well, this could send the whole thing crashing down and, as you say, Russia could pick up 'allies' if not outright satellites as a result.

1. This Ukrainian affair has had the opposite impact and has resulted closer ties and collaboration.
2. The Eurozone is not teetering. Some people forget that the EU is the biggest economy on the planet and Russia's economy is about the size of Italy, the fourth largest economy in the EU.
3. Most old Russian/Soviet "satellites" have chosen to shed the shackles of their old oppressor and join the EU. The fact that Ukraine wants to do that is the problem. Russia just cannot let Ukraine go and Ukraine are bigger than Georgia so they cannot try the old "deploy the tanks" trick this time.

Regards

a reply to: nwtrucker

Vote? What vote?

Or was this some anti-EU group in Germany banging the drum, but cancelled it after they realised they'd just be embarrassed, as Germany has pretty much the highest amount of people in favour of the EU across the 27 nations.

You may be confused with the UK - we've been promised referenda before, which all got shelved, but we have one in the works for 2017.

originally posted by: MrSpad

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: stumason

Syria is a totally different situation - there, the Government began firing on unarmed protesters prompting the uprising and then, all they wanted was to not live under an authoritarian regime, not break away.

And those U.S. funded rebels turned out to be such a nice bunch of guys, didn't they....The U.S. funds and arms madmen all over the world if it suits their agenda, so yes it's rank hypocrisy on the U.S's part.

Those backed rebels have been fighting ISIS longer than anybody else. So yes turns out they are nice bunch of guys. They have not managed to turn the local population against them by stealing everything they could get their hands on like those lovely rebels in Ukraine.

Are these the same nice guy's who used C.W's on civilians and tried to blame it on Assad?

Since this thread is derailed anyway.

Anyone claiming that the EU is stronger then it was pre-2008 needs to get their marbles checked. The divide is increasing between southern Europe and north Europe. The Right extremist are on the rise in Europe.

Germany will do what Germany does best, make sure Germany survives, and at some point nations are gonna point fingers at Germany,because so far the only nation that has been gaining with the European budget spree is Germany.

Until now, Germany's Economy shrank, and the Minister of Economy said this was partial because of the Sanctions against Russia ( which is also creating tensions between countries )