Reasons why I don't believe in the christian god and bible

A few things before I begin. I saw someone else's thread and it reminded me that I had wanted to post this. So, thanks to you.
I was indoctrinated into christianity at a young age but I was always one to think and ask questions. Here are a few key points that changed my mind.

God created everything in 6 days.
For this to be true, humans and dinosaurs would have to have been living at the same time.
Before some of you chime in with something like "one of God's days is many of our years" God is supposed to be omnipotent,omniscient,omnipresent and have made everything, time included, surely it would've known how we would measure it and tell the story accordingly. No explanation for this has or will ever change my mind.

The entire fall from Eden story.
God is supposed to be omniscient. why would it create a scenario knowing what would happen and then punish the created for it?
If this is true, God is a sadist.

The story of Job.
There goes God being a sadist again. Poor guy didn't even do anything wrong. This time it was supposed to be in order to win a holy bet with satan.


The exodus and manna from heaven.
There have been a lot of starving people in the world since then. I bet they would have/would love to fill themselves with food from god.
Maybe it's the sadistic skyman getting his kicks? I don't know.

The common idea that christian god is good.
If it always has been and always will be, and created everything, it created evil. Even if that evil happened later by a rebellion, God is supposed to be omniscient.

Finally the last point i will put on my list.
If christian God's book is supposed to be infallible and uncorruptable, then why is it so full of lies?

Just some of the reasons why I chose to go my own spiritual path. To me God is neutral,understands what you are, and lets you live accordingly. It doesn't need a temple or a shrine or a church because It is everything and It will certainly never need you to kill someone for it or want you to give bits of metal and paper in its name.

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

Good for you, EyesOpen. Do you feel better now that its off your chest?

These are objections which have been made by some others. Thank you for the insight into your mind.

Now what do you want?

I believe there is a god but I don't believe in a book written by man to oppress us

I thought if you were going to make a post about why you no longer believe, you would at least have something well thought out and profound. Instead, you have the same tired points that many others before you have echoed. If you want someone to rebut you ... all you have to do is exercise your search engine skills; that's how common your reasons for deciding to fire God are.

Likely, the three of us who replied all faced one or more of them at one time in our youth and had to wrestle through them instead of allowing them to be roadblocks.

But I'm sure the ranks of the angry atheists are happy to have you.

a reply to: charles1952

I want a beer

originally posted by: ketsuko
I thought if you were going to make a post about why you no longer believe, you would at least have something well thought out and profound. Instead, you have the same tired points that many others before you have echoed. If you want someone to rebut you ... all you have to do is exercise your search engine skills; that's how common your reasons for deciding to fire God are.

Likely, the three of us who replied all faced one or more of them at one time in our youth and had to wrestle through them instead of allowing them to be roadblocks.

But I'm sure the ranks of the angry atheists are happy to have you.

Why should it be profound? im not writing an article of academia. It's an opinion on religious mythology .
The only thing profound is that so many people believe what they know is wrong and the way they would treat those that refuse to do the same

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

Instead of going to church ... try going to college. Understanding religion is most easily achieved in a neutral environment ... non-hostile/non-favorable ... no pressure to decide what is right or what is wrong. It's a real EyeOpener. LOL

originally posted by: EyesOpenMouthShut
A few things before I begin. I saw someone else's thread and it reminded me that I had wanted to post this. So, thanks to you.
I was indoctrinated into christianity at a young age but I was always one to think and ask questions. Here are a few key points that changed my mind.

God created everything in 6 days.
For this to be true, humans and dinosaurs would have to have been living at the same time.
Before some of you chime in with something like "one of God's days is many of our years" God is supposed to be omnipotent,omniscient,omnipresent and have made everything, time included, surely it would've known how we would measure it and tell the story accordingly. No explanation for this has or will ever change my mind.

The entire fall from Eden story.
God is supposed to be omniscient. why would it create a scenario knowing what would happen and then punish the created for it?
If this is true, God is a sadist.

The story of Job.
There goes God being a sadist again. Poor guy didn't even do anything wrong. This time it was supposed to be in order to win a holy bet with satan.


The exodus and manna from heaven.
There have been a lot of starving people in the world since then. I bet they would have/would love to fill themselves with food from god.
Maybe it's the sadistic skyman getting his kicks? I don't know.

The common idea that christian god is good.
If it always has been and always will be, and created everything, it created evil. Even if that evil happened later by a rebellion, God is supposed to be omniscient.

Finally the last point i will put on my list.
If christian God's book is supposed to be infallible and uncorruptable, then why is it so full of lies?

You need to make a connection between what the Bible says or is, and Jesus Christ.
Only then, can you differentiate. For me words in a book that includes a biography of what concerns Jesus Christ do not mean that every 'i' is dotted nor every 't' is crossed.

originally posted by: ketsuko
I thought if you were going to make a post about why you no longer believe, you would at least have something well thought out and profound. Instead, you have the same tired points that many others before you have echoed. If you want someone to rebut you ... all you have to do is exercise your search engine skills; that's how common your reasons for deciding to fire God are.

.

Thanks for exhibiting the very reasons I decided to seek my own path other than the Christianity I was raised with.
Arrogance, holier than thou, judgmental and mean spirited other than compassionate and consoling of someone having a crisis of faith. Typical...

a reply to: olaru12

The reason (not that anybody cares) I didn't like the OP was that it was "closed," it was not amenable to discussion.

Basically, he said "I don't like X, because of 1,2,3,4, OK, I'm done now." He has no interest in debating the points or discussing them further.

Arrogance, holier than thou, judgmental and mean spirited other than compassionate and consoling of someone having a crisis of faith. Typical..

The reason I don't care for it is because it is a poor OP. He states an opinion and says, in effect, "I'm done." I'm not being arrogant, holier than thou, judgmental, or mean spirited when I say it is one of the worst OPs I've seen in a while and the subject of the OP has nothing to do with it.

You want me to be nice and gentle because he's "having a crisis of faith?" But he's not having a crisis of faith. He knows what his faith is, he's apparently proud of it, and has no desire to discuss it.

I think his opinion is uneducated, close-minded, and intolerant, but he hasn't asked for my opinion, nor have I criticized him for his. My objection has been to the OP.

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

Questioning is good, let it inspire you to find the answers though instead of simply saying it must not be true. This is as clear as day.

The beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the Heavens and the earth (Perfect, complete and to be Inhabited). And the earth became waste, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (Frozen Ice). And the Spirit of God moved (hovering, brooding); [the beginning of the heavens and earth which are now] upon the face of the waters [Melted Ice]. (Gen. 1:1-2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , EWB-CB)



www.genesissecretsrevealed.com...

And the earth was (hâyâh) without form, (tôhû) and void; (bôhû) and darkness (chôshek) was upon the face of the deep.(tehôm tehôm) And the Spirit (rûach) of God (‘ĕlôhı̂ym) moved (râchaph) upon the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] Hebrew)

hâyâh – become, come to pass, became

tôhû – desolation, or become worthless.

bôhû – ruin chôshek – destruction

tehôm tehôm – abyss

rûach – breath

râchaph – to brood as a mother hen


Cataclysmic judgment was pronounced upon the earth (between the 1st and 2nd verse) due to the fall of Lucifer. In addition, other verses of Genesis describe a reforming of the earth from a chaotic state. The E.W. Bullinger Companion Bible of 1909 clearly shows the Ruin – Restoration theme of Genesis:

The beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the Heavens and the earth (Perfect, complete and to be Inhabited). And the earth became waste, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (Frozen Ice). And the Spirit of God moved (hovering, brooding); [the beginning of the heavens and earth which are now] upon the face of the waters [Melted Ice]. (Gen. 1:1-2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , EWB-CB)

The six days of Genesis are the account of a re-creation, or regeneration of a previously existent heavens and earth (not the original creation), and seven creative days within Genesis chapter one are not a geological history of the earth!

Ruin-Reconstruction relies upon specific linguistic reasoning behind the Hebrew Scriptures. First, a newly created earth should not have been without form and void. Second, the word “was” in Genesis 1:2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] is more accurately translated as “became.” The Hebrew word for “was” is haw-yaw’ and means “become”, or come to pass. Third, “create” and “made” are different in the Hebrew language as well. “Create” (bara in Hebrew) means to call forth out of nothingness. The Christian doctrine “Ex nihilo” has a Latin phrase meaning “out of nothing” from this Hebrew word. Subsequently in the text, the words “make” or “form” (asah in Hebrew) mean a re-fashioning or making from pre-existing material. This refers to the substance remaining after the earth underwent Lucifer’s judgment.


Hebrews 11:3 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] says, “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.”

This means that the heavens and the earth came into existence by divine command and was not assembled from pre-existing matter or energy. Further support can be seen in Isaiah 45:18 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] where it is stated that the earth was not created in “vain” (tohu), “He (God) formed (asah) it (the earth) to be inhabited.” The word “was” or “became” in Genesis 1:2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , allows a change of state to occur from verse one to verse two and is more accurately translated “became”. That is, the initial perfect creation of verse one “became” without form and void, indicating a transition occurred. Genesis 1:2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] reveals that,

“And the earth was (had become) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] )

Additional support comes from the phrase “without form and void.”

Consider other Biblical texts in which these words are found together. In Isaiah 24:1 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] and Jeremiah 4:23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , one sees that they are judgmental in character and context.

Jeremiah describes a time when the earth was “without form, and void.” Noah’s flood was not even as horrific nor brought such barren conditions as described by Jeremiah. It can only be a cataclysmic destruction by God of the Pre-Adamic world. Remember, Isaiah 45:18 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] states:

“God did not create the earth in vain; he formed it in order for it to be inhabited”.

Jeremiah also wrote:

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it (Jeremiah 4:23-28).

a reply to: charles1952

Uneducated? Hardly,
I've spent the better part of my life going over the material and listening/reading various opinions and sources. No explanation has ever satisfied me.
Close-minded? Only to the point that the key is in the lock but hasn't been turned.
as stated above years of answer seeking has brought me to this point.
Intolerant? not at all.
I couldn't care less about what personal religious beliefs a person has. just like every other personal preference that doesn't effect me directly.

My crisis of faith ended years ago, so no sympathy for me there and the OP is more along the lines of "I do not believe X and this is why" also if you read back, only one of the points are stated to be non debatable for me.

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

Go back to the Greek translation and you will find that the Bible was fabricated numerous times and still to this day is fabricated with new translations etc. It's a joke and has sucked a lot of people in.

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

Unfortunately,people who were indoctrinated when they were a little child with religion they will hardly or they will never escape from that doctrine.Even if you are going to look for rational explanations to everything,esspecialy for your halucination if you have or this is an example,if you were a christian,the cross will help get past of the halucination because you believe that it will help you,it is "genetically" transmitted.

I remember an experiment made by british mentalist and psychologist Derren Brown.He took 15 convinced atheists and he sent them one by one into a crypt and they should remain alone there for 15 minutes,only with a camera inside to film them.Everyone except one of them stood there for maximum 5 minutes and told that they didn't felt good there and they felt a constant fear and that someone watches them,or they heard footsteps around there.The one who went in that crypt wasn't scared at all and said that he felt good and he didn't have any problems there.

Every "miracle" that happened in the Bible has some basic psychological facts,esspecialy the Placebo Effect.I believe that the Cristian God is hyprocrit sometimes,for example he tells us to forgive as much as we can,and he didn't forgive Eva for eating an apple....or that he loves us all and the kids in Africa are dying from famine and so on...

Peace!

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

The "God" of the bible whom you allude to is not a "Christian" God. He is a Jewish God! This God originates in the old testament. Old Testament is Jewish. The only part of the bible which is in any way non-Jewish is the acceptance of the idea that Jesus of Nazareth is a representative of the Jewish God i.e. an earthly incarnation.

So I suggest your argument is with Jewish religious agencies. Good luck with that.

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

Don't take my first paragraph as criticism of you. I am merely stating the case for all of us. This is long, but read what I have written and you will see this thread by a different light. Don't skim. Think about what I have said here.

Most of the presuppositions that we use to found our theological beliefs are speculative conclusions at best. Like all of us, you are outlining your presuppositions here according to your own understanding, but true knowledge of the Word of God is only found in the symbolism encoded under the outer story. Apart from specific scripture references to back up speculations, there is no way to discuss the points made in this thread. Consider breaking your doubt into small segments and examples with scripture reference to back up what you are claiming.

Here is simply one small example: You state that everything was created in six days. Who's perspective is this narrative from? We assume a day is 24 hours. This would be true if a human were giving the narrative. The solar system revolves around the central sun every 220 million years. The Genesis narrative was given to Moses by a being that is not human. In addition to this, there is a concept in physics know as time dilation. Assuming that the narrative is told from the perspective of an entity that is outside of time, perspective and frame of reference is not the same for us. You also state that everything was created in six day. It's a big universe, but is the narrative in Genesis is speaking of Earth only?

A good example of time dilation is a human traveling away from Earth with FTL (faster than light) drives on their ship. If they travel a few years away from Earth, then back again, the people of Earth would be thousands of years older. The faster they travel away and back, the more time elapses for those on Earth, yet the occupants of the ship are only a few years older. Time is relative to space, mass and distance traveled. Space and time are essentially the same thing. Any entity trying to give us a narrow understanding of creation would need to use symbolism and analogy to get the message across to us over time. As our understanding increases, the complexity of the narrative expands.

There are many reasons that our presuppositions about scripture can be fatally flawed. We are all working from a flawed theology that sees the word of God as a shadow of what it really represents. This is the trouble with being a dimension lower than the thing we are examining. Look at it this way. A 3D object casts a 2D shadow. Look at your own shadow. If you have the correct presuppositions about the shape of a dog compared to a human, then you will see the difference between the two shadows. Apart from being able to first see the 3D object, your own speculation about the shadows would be fatally flawed. It is wrong to conclude that something is entirely false based on your own inability to understand.

This is where faith comes in. Faith allows us to see the shadow from the clues left behind. Regardless of your understanding, faith allows room for hope in what is true. The best of what we can ever imagine about supreme goodness is always found by following the shadow cast by the word of God. It is the foundation that shows us the hidden reality of heaven (order) as opposed to hell (chaos).

How is faith defined by the Bible:

Hebrews 9

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

This is where the enigma of the Bible is so easy to see. It's a shadow yes, but we can assume the larger perspective by realizing that it always explains itself. We are speaking of faith in relation to how the world was created. I am showing you the truth of the matter here and the Word backs me up perfectly. There is no mistake in this. The answers are always provided as long as we are willing to see what it hidden. Again, it's by dimension. Without faith, it is impossible to see with this type of vision. With faith, the answers appear from symbolism.

Ask a small child to choose a dime or nickle. They choose the one that is larger. Ask someone who knows the symbolism and they choose the dime for its hidden value. To understand the Word, you must know the value under the words. Symbolism is where this value is defined. We cannot understand truth apart from living that truth. Application is necessary or we are blinded.

Another good example is found in my first thread on ATS concerning DNA. Creation is explained in the symbolism of Hebrew letters and words: LINK If you apply what can be known from the thread I link, compare this to the verses above. What is unseen? Information. It's a hologram. Change your presupposition to what we can know today and your paradigm shifts back toward a view that sees the shadow for what it represents in reality.

Read the thread I linked, then go back to Hebrews 11 above. Ask yourself if it is possible that God rendered reality from information in six days. Can a human render a virtual reality like Avatar in a few years on the movie screen? What stops a God from doing the same in six days?

It's either possible or impossible. Possible is the better answer.

It's interesting since I have been on ATS I have noticed a trend, this trend is not to doubt God first but more to disagree with his way of doing things AND THEN to doubt his existence because of that. Really it's a thinking pattern that extols a mind that is a few decades old over one that has existed forever, because we don't understand and our sense of justice feel violated. But is 30 year old person smarter than a 3 year old ? Ever been questioned by stubborn child who won't accept your answer to their question, because they don't understand ?

originally posted by: EyesOpenMouthShut
I was indoctrinated into christianity at a young age but I was always one to think and ask questions.

I am the same. While I asked MANY questions about my religion by the age of 5, growing up and learning concepts outside my religion opened my eyes to the possibilities. Eventually, I realized how extremely unlikely it was that the stories I was raised on were actual truth. I also realized how unlikely it was that there was even one single source, above us all, who created us and sits back waiting for us to die, so he can punish or reward us.

So, I began to search (at about age 30) for a more likely explanation for who we are, where we came from and why we're here.

My eventual conclusion? We cannot know.

Many people would continue to search for "the truth", but there is no evidence that we know of that would point us in any direction. There's just life and death. So, I decided to accept that. It was very hard at first, because I was so used to praying when confronted with life's bumps and potholes. But after a while, I learned that I have everything I need to get me by in this life. In fact, I have everything I need to live a happy, fulfilled, wonderful, loving life! Not by turning to some imagined higher power, but by turning inward and searching my own self for answers. And I don't feel all the the guilt, fear and shame that religion encourages.

Thanks for your post.

originally posted by: charles1952




I think his opinion is uneducated, close-minded, and intolerant, but he hasn't asked for my opinion, nor have I criticized him for his.

You just did criticize his, by calling his opinion "uneducated" "close-minded" and "intolerant"

Speaking of opinions....your opinion means less and less to me as you seem to having your Hamartia rearing it's ugly head quite often of late. Something bothering you?