One Gaza Issue Resolved. Israel Not Targeting Women and Children.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

They want to occupy it again because A the gas, and B they want all the land.
That's why they are committing genocide. Hell they are taking the land in the West Bank and refuse to let Palestinians farm it though it is internationally recognized as Palestinian land.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: charles1952

Sorry, this thead is almost hoax worthy.

They blew up four kids on an empty stretch of beach. They id'd their targets, hit them and then hit them on the reatrea. 4 kids playing soccer on a stretch of beach. If they DIDN'T target them (year right) then that tells us they are firing at anyone indiscriminately, if that's the case then we know they don't care to kill innocent civilians.

So best case they are killing indiscriminately and worst case they are intentionally killing kids and civilians.

Israel's propaganda aside, we know they are. Hell, an Israeli IDF whistle blower admitted they fired on retreating civilians.

So let's hoax this b.s. thread.

430+ dead Palestinians civilians.. 7 or more UN refugee schools and hospitals bombed. Don't try to lie to us OP. Those weren't all accidents.

So how many civilian deaths have there been, and since they are TARGETING women and children what percent of those civilian deaths would you say are women and children? 60%?

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
a reply to: charles1952

Awesome post, they can't lie their way around the numbers.

Don't need to lie. The numbers don't actually prove anything.

The actual numbers and attacks on refugee camps that the UN warned them not to bomb speak louder.

If you want to know what the read numbers indicate.. they show three things. Israel does target civilians ( some politicans have said so in political speech) and the civilian deaths show it. The numbers show Hamas focuses on IDF and not civilians. Also the numbers show that the Iron Dome is useless.

A new question has come up which I think is worth exploring. And I'd rather not have the thread drift into some of the angry avenues that these threads seem to enter.

I think we see that Israel is not targeting women and children. But the new question is "Are they intentionally killing civilians?" I think the problem may be a confusion over words.

When I think of "targeting" I think of a widespread practice, or policy, of going after certain classes of people.

But what do we do with "intentionally killing civilians?" This could mean anything from a frightened soldier shooting an old man because he saw the shadow coming, to a formal policy issued by the government to the IDF. Frankly, I don't know. But since they are trying to stay away from women and children, it would seem that they don't have a wide spread policy.

It's also tough to know because the information comes from Hamas, a completely non-creditable source. Anybody want to help me out?

originally posted by: rickymouse
How many percent of the dead were soldiers and how many were regular citizens. That would be my interest, how many percent were people not fighting this war.

It's impossible to know since most of Hamas and the other terrorist groups in Gaza do not wear identifying uniforms...There may have been zero civilian men casualties for all we know...

This needs to be HOAXED. This has not been resolved.

The premise of the thread is not verified.

originally posted by: samsamm9
When you murder kids playing soccer on a beach, it seems to me they are targeting children.

Was the order given from high up or was the shelling decided on at a lower level? Or, did the higher command give a general order to kill anything that moved? Do we assume in every war when innocents are kill it is all based on a formal order of some kind, or do innocent people die in war?

The OP has established that the deaths of women and children are due to proximity of battle and not targeted... Seems rather straight forward...

a reply to: charles1952

Yes, it also says Israel's number for civilians dead is somewhere in the low 50% range. The question of the UN's objectivity in this matter may be discussed in another thread.

The UN is neutral in this why would you accept Israel's estimate and not one from the organizations that are in Gaza? Israel has already been caught lying so much do you actually think they can be trusted to give an accurate figure? Do you want the truth or just spread Israel's propaganda for them?

So, as I said, it doesn't show Israel is targeting civilians. But I'm glad to see that you seem, at least so far, to agree with me that Israel is not targeting women and children, just "innocents." It's a step, I guess.

Women and children are included with the civilians so if they are targeting civilians and with the rate of 72% civilian then they are also targeting women and children. So how many women and children have to die before you are willing to admit that Israel is targeting them?

No way around sending your troops in to be killed? Of course there are. Demand surrender or there will be massive bombing strikes, artillery barrages, oh, there are choices.

If you do this in a place a densely populated as Gaza then there will be large numbers of civilians killed. So you think it is ok to kill innocent people just because you may lose a couple of people?

I understand Muhammad used a siege, starving everyone in the city.

Muḥammad was a long time ago and he isn't alone in using that tactic. Israel has been doing it for years with the blockade.
I think you misread your wiki link and reread this sentence.

In 1977, Protocol I was adopted as an amendment to the Geneva Conventions, prohibiting the deliberate or indiscriminate attack of civilians and civilian objects, even if the area contained military objectives, and the attacking force must take precautions and steps to spare the lives of civilians and civilian objects as possible.

Do you actually think Israel is doing this?

However, forces occupying near densely populated areas must avoid locating military objectives near or in densely populated areas and endeavor to remove civilians from the vicinity of military objectives.

Show all this area that Hamas has to wage war from. If the people have no safe place to run to then Hamas has no place to wage war from.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: charles1952

Charles,

Really?

If it makes you feel better, go for it.

You say, and I quote your OP here,

"Now, finally, we can dismiss the claim that Israel is deliberately targeting women and children. They are not. "

and then go on to use percentages of population to support your supposition that "They are not".

You can no more prove that they are not target a specific subset of the poplution in that manner then you could prove that they are targeting those same subsets.

Their attackes, I will agree, are indiscriminate. However, with their detailed maps of the region and 'smart' US-made arms seem to be targeting hospitals & schools & other clearly defined sheltures. That speaks to targeting the weak and vulnerable. Their 'precsion' bombing (best arms, best training, yadda, yadda) seems to be 'intented' to kill the most people possible.

No - you cannot say "They are Not".

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
This needs to be HOAXED. This has not been resolved.

The premise of the thread is not verified.

Can you provide a list of deaths that show a large number of women and children make up the percentage of those killed? Can you discount the large percentage of the population in that area are women and children over men of fighting age? Can you discount that the general population supports Hamas and so are basically embedded with the fighters?

I think if you want to call it all a hoax, then YOU need to disprove it, and not just say it is a hoax as your proof.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
This needs to be HOAXED. This has not been resolved.

The premise of the thread is not verified.

You did not answer my question. If the policy is to specifically target women and children what percent of total civilian deaths would be women and children? 60%?

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: TinfoilTP

They want to occupy it again because A the gas, and B they want all the land.
That's why they are committing genocide. Hell they are taking the land in the West Bank and refuse to let Palestinians farm it though it is internationally recognized as Palestinian land.

why would you expect any one to take you seriously...Less than 2000 dead out of 1.8 million and you call it genocide???

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
This needs to be HOAXED. This has not been resolved.

The premise of the thread is not verified.

Can you provide a list of deaths that show a large number of women and children make up the percentage of those killed? Can you discount the large percentage of the population in that area are women and children over men of fighting age? Can you discount that the general population supports Hamas and so are basically embedded with the fighters?

I think if you want to call it all a hoax, then YOU need to disprove it, and not just say it is a hoax as your proof.

Actually I can. First off Israel itself agreed to the numbers. Of around 2000 killed 430+ were in fact children, then around 900 cvilians (many many women), the rest were alleged militants. Considering the land is like 147 square miles with 1.6 million people, it's not hard to realize that women and children are in the line of fire, but that doesn't make the deaths of any male civilians (of any age) less of a tragedy as you seem to imply.

And YES I can 100 percent discount that the general population supports Hamas, as it is well known that they do not. Hamas has lost support and other (and the former) political group in Gaza enjoys higher support than Hamas. You will hear stories even of Palestinians attacking Hamas member.

So yes, you are wrong. This is a hoax worthy thread.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
a reply to: charles1952

Awesome post, they can't lie their way around the numbers.

Don't need to lie. The numbers don't actually prove anything.

The actual numbers and attacks on refugee camps that the UN warned them not to bomb speak louder.

If you want to know what the read numbers indicate.. they show three things. Israel does target civilians ( some politicans have said so in political speech) and the civilian deaths show it. The numbers show Hamas focuses on IDF and not civilians. Also the numbers show that the Iron Dome is useless.

Oh brother!!! Over 3000 Palestinian rockets fired at Israeli civilians any you have the gall to make a claim like this...

originally posted by: buster2010
Women and children are included with the civilians so if they are targeting civilians and with the rate of 72% civilian then they are also targeting women and children. So how many women and children have to die before you are willing to admit that Israel is targeting them?

2000 are dead, how many are women and children? If it was a random attack on the civilian population then over 1500 of the dead should be women and children based on the population mix of what they represent. If the general population supports Hamas and the fighters launch their rockets from densely populated areas how does that figure in the total deaths if it was random or civilian targeted attacks?

I think the big question is why only 1500? They could easily do that per day if their goal was the general population, and then we would see a large death toll that was 70% plus women and children on top of some very large death statistic.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
This needs to be HOAXED. This has not been resolved.

The premise of the thread is not verified.

Can you provide a list of deaths that show a large number of women and children make up the percentage of those killed? Can you discount the large percentage of the population in that area are women and children over men of fighting age? Can you discount that the general population supports Hamas and so are basically embedded with the fighters?

I think if you want to call it all a hoax, then YOU need to disprove it, and not just say it is a hoax as your proof.

Actually I can. First off Israel itself agreed to the numbers. Of around 2000 killed 430+ were in fact children, then around 900 cvilians (many many women), the rest were alleged militants. Considering the land is like 147 square miles with 1.6 million people, it's not hard to realize that women and children are in the line of fire, but that doesn't make the deaths of any male civilians (of any age) less of a tragedy as you seem to imply.

And YES I can 100 percent discount that the general population supports Hamas, as it is well known that they do not. Hamas has lost support and other (and the former) political group in Gaza enjoys higher support than Hamas. You will hear stories even of Palestinians attacking Hamas member.

So yes, you are wrong. This is a hoax worthy thread.

Hamas was elected. They should elect someone else. How about you answer my question I have asked you several times.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Actually I can. First off Israel itself agreed to the numbers. Of around 2000 killed 430+ were in fact children, then around 900 cvilians (many many women), the rest were alleged militants. Considering the land is like 147 square miles with 1.6 million people, it's not hard to realize that women and children are in the line of fire, but that doesn't make the deaths of any male civilians (of any age) less of a tragedy as you seem to imply.

Women and children ARE in the line of fire, Hamas is embedded with the population in very dense areas, bombs no matter how accurate are discriminatory in nature. The general population supports Hamas and are not trying to distance themselves from the areas that Hamas is fighting out of.

What do you expect?

And YES I can 100 percent discount that the general population supports Hamas, as it is well known that they do not. Hamas has lost support and other (and the former) political group in Gaza enjoys higher support than Hamas. You will hear stories even of Palestinians attacking Hamas member.

Maybe bigger font will makes it truer...

How many rocket positions has the general population taken out? Why did the general population vote Hamas into power? So are you saying that Hamas is bad for the general population with their 3500 rocket attacks?

originally posted by: Iscool

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: TinfoilTP

They want to occupy it again because A the gas, and B they want all the land.
That's why they are committing genocide. Hell they are taking the land in the West Bank and refuse to let Palestinians farm it though it is internationally recognized as Palestinian land.

why would you expect any one to take you seriously...Less than 2000 dead out of 1.8 million and you call it genocide???

Well.. you see.. if you knew what Genocide actually is and what the word actually means then you would take me VERY seriously.

I will teach you something so you can understand. I won't hold it against you if you delete your comment when i display your ignorance here.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity. Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

So, I can excuse you for being ignorant of what genocide actually means. Now you should know and no longer excuse Israel's genocide.

It's not just killing large numbers of Palestinians (althought that is enough to consider it genocide), but it is also creating an environment that leads towards the death of a group.

So Israel is constantly at the helm of a genocide against Israel.
Keeping them from recieving aid and materials needed to prosper, causing lower birth rates due to lack of food and resources, and then intermittently killing large numbers of civilians (including the next generation) - all these things combined make genocide.
You don't have to summary execute them all. This is a long stretched out genocide.

But NOW you understand what genocide is and know that it isn't just killing everyone in a group, it's killing them, while also making the possibility to prosper and grow. Eventually these things combined will spell the end of Palestinians as a people.

So, you done been schooled.

So yes, THIS IS GENOCIDE. feel ashamed yet?

Oh, and not "less than 2000" that's from this conflict (also it's 1.6 million in gaza). The number between year 2000 and now is closer to 7600 to 8000 civilians. Also you may wonder.. how many of the next generation, children have been killed in ten years by Israel. Well that number is between 1537 and 1700.

That doesn't include alleged militants.

So starving people, keeping them in a prison. Not allowing water and food. Using illegal naval blockades so they can only fish a few miles off shore (like 6 or so). Then killing a couple thousand civilians every 2 or 3 years (israeli's refer to it as "time to mow the lawn." All of that plus the murder of around 8000 people in ten years.. that is the definition of an ongoing genocide.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Well.. you see.. if you knew what Genocide actually is and what the word actually means then you would take me VERY seriously.

Genocide is not 1500 or 2000 out of 1.5 million... It usually goes the way of a ground war and all males are killed and the females that live are raped to bare children to wipe out the race...

Kind of what ISIS is trying to do...

I will teach you something so you can understand. I won't hold it against you if you delete your comment when i display your ignorance here.

I have seen genocide in Bosnia, Darfur, Iraq....

This thread just seems like a justification so people can sleep at night knowing they are backing an army that is killing more civilians than enemy combatants. You can look at it this way as well, what is the percentage of IDF soldiers killed by Hamas versus Israeli civilians? The numbers there show that they have killed more of their enemy combatants than civilians, so what does that mean? This thread is just saying, look at those monsters over there but ignore these ones here, sick.