One Gaza Issue Resolved. Israel Not Targeting Women and Children.

originally posted by: Wiseupall
They shouldn't be targeting ANY civilians END OF! This strip of land 35mile x 7mile Approx., is an inescapable ghetto and nothing more and Isreal won't be happy until they Occupy it all.

Isis occupies a lot of new land and cities. They dig big holes and bury everyone in them alive or dead. They don't even have a modern army.

Israel did occupy Gaza with settlers and infrastructure and security forces, they took everyone out and unoccupied it. What makes you think they want to occupy it again? Wouldn't they have just occupied it harder instead of giving it back if that was their goal?

a reply to: charles1952

Dear Charles1952


Do bombs discriminate?

Does it really matter weather its just woman and children?

Is their a bigger picture here ?

Just saying .

With respect
LightingStrikesHere

a reply to: charles1952

The good old i must have missed the point of the op, your tittle implies that you have proof that woman and children are not targeted, which you dont have, all you have is the number of dead, by age group or whatever.

But plz dont stop for me i find interesting that someone who sounds so smart can be so silly.

While I do not believe they are purposely targeting women and children I think they are not overly concerned when it comes to those casualties.
While it might not be a specific strategy I believe there was an IDF soldier who claimed his unit was allowed to "blow off steam" by sniping some civillians following the death of some of their fellow IDF, he was apparently arrested after releasing that info..or so its been reported.
The whole thing stinks, Hamas disregards its own citizens and puts them in harms way but I would hope the IDF knows you just can't shell/bomb a hospita?l..even if rockets may be coming from the vicinity..damn its insane isn't it.
Neither leadership is innocent IMHO.
Cheers.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Dear LightningStrikesHere,

For many posters it does seem to matter. There are many posts on ATS which take the position that they have to emphasize that Israel is targeting women and children. Consider also the photos which Hamas is allowing to leave Gaza. Women and children, right?

There may very well be a bigger picture but, as I said in the OP, I am not addressing the entire picture, just the claim that Israel is intentionally targeting women and children. Can we agree that at least that isn't true, then we can go on to more of your "bigger picture?"

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

The 75% is an nice figure, a little closer to Hamas' claim than Israel's, but that doesn't matter. I'm grateful to you. I was wondering what was going to be the next position when the idea of "targeting women and children" was no longer believable. I suppose it will be "killing innocents."

If you read the NYT article it says the the UN's number for civilians dead is 72%. This shows that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians. Israel is automatically lumping males in a certain age range as militants they are doing this to cover the number of civilians killed.

1.) When enemy fighters are in a city, how do you get them out while losing the smallest number of your own people?

When you go to fight in a city it is an accepted fact that you are going to lose people there is no way around it. You just have to learn to accept those loses to get the job done.

2.) Has it been established that Hamas doesn't turn shelters, schools, or hospitals into military targets?

Even if they have stored weapons in these places you cannot target them. It is a violation of international law the UN has already stated that. Israel is not above the law. Also a vast majority of the time Israel claims there was weapons stored there but never proves it sometimes they claim that the weapons were near the place but they are too incompetent to use the weapons correctly so they hit those places by accident.

a reply to: charles1952

Fair enough .....


I just feel like people should focus on the whole reason for the bombings.

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Dear dukeofjive696969,

That's a good point, the question of proof. Let me throw out a couple of examples.

Take ten cards at random from a deck. Pick one, check the color, put it back, shuffle, and do it again. If you do it 50,000 times and you get red every time, that's statistical proof that there are no black cards in your hand.

Or, say you're checking out the coin which will be used to flip at the start of the Super Bowl. You flip it 100 times and get 92 heads. That's pretty good proof that the coin is not legitimate.

Such is the case with the numbers in the analyses in the sources I mentioned.

And thank you for complimenting how I sound. Sometimes that's all it takes.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: charles1952

Who Israel is targeting is not my concern. What is my concern, is that my tax dollars are paying for their war.

I agree!

Now my dear Brother chucky,
This is the wonderful thing about bombs by the dozens...err thousands, you don't have to aim as bombs don't care who they kill.
No matter how many stats or how much spin you put on it, israeli terrorists are murdering innocents.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: daaskapital

Dear daaskapital,

I'm not sure I understand your objection. Israel is killing far fewer women and children than they would if they were just firing randomly. You seem to be saying that Israel is targeting women, but they're not killing any.

I agree. Israel is not, for the most part, firing randomly. There have been some reports of indiscriminate firing though, especially in the neighbourhood of shujayea.

Here's some footage of Israel leveling a neighbourhood in Gaza:



What i'm trying to say, is that even though the casualty count of women and children make up a lower percentage than fighting age males, Israel has still targeted civilians in specific instances. Just because fewer women and children have been killed, does not mean that Israel hasn't intentionally targeted them. There is some evidence that Israel has intentionally killed civilians in this current war.

The 75% is an nice figure, a little closer to Hamas' claim than Israel's, but that doesn't matter.

The figure of roughly 75% comes from the UN:

The UN and rights groups operating in Gaza under the umbrella of the High Commissioner for Human Rights(OHCHR), say about three-quarters of the around 1,900 Palestinians killed were civilians, including 450 children, with many perishing in strikes that killed several family members at a time.

...

UN researchers start out with figures from the ministry, the media and other sources, but then cross-check them with the help of Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights groups.

The UN's overall number of 1,922 killed is slightly higher than that of the Gaza Health Ministry.

The UN said nearly 73 percent of the total, or 1,407, were civilians, defined as those who didn't take part in hostilities and were not members of armed groups.

www.ynetnews.com...

I'm grateful to you. I was wondering what was going to be the next position when the idea of "targeting women and children" was no longer believable. I suppose it will be "killing innocents."

It is well proven that Israel has killed civilians. What is there to argue? You seem to be justifying the position that Israel doesn't intentionally kill women and children, because women and children have been killed by Israel.

The fact is that the amount of deaths doesn't matter. Israel has still intentionally targeted civilians.

Two questions which you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

1.) When enemy fighters are in a city, how do you get them out while losing the smallest number of your own people?

By not bombing crowded neighbourhoods.

In my opinion, it would be best to deploy special forces soldiers. While it would prove risky, and there are high chances of death, small, targeted raids could prove better than bombings. It would allow for higher amounts of precision, at the risk of human life.

2.) Has it been established that Hamas doesn't turn shelters, schools, or hospitals into military targets?

None of the occupied shelters have had Hamas rockets in them. The hospitals are still out in the open, but i think it unwise to bomb hospitals regardless.

With respect,
Charles1952

Thanks,

Daas.

originally posted by: vonclod
While I do not believe they are purposely targeting women and children I think they are not overly concerned when it comes to those casualties.

Yep. I believe this too. If they find an area that they feel needs to be hit, it doesn't matter to them that the area is populated with women and children. That's not the same thing as purposefully targeting, but it isn't much better.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
a reply to: charles1952

Since when is it ok to kill a politician and civil servants because of behing part of an extremist party.

That's like saying you are not guilty of murder because all you did was plan, finance, and buy the weapon, you did not pull the trigger so you are innocent.

originally posted by: buster2010
Even if they have stored weapons in these places you cannot target them. It is a violation of international law the UN has already stated that. Israel is not above the law. Also a vast majority of the time Israel claims there was weapons stored there but never proves it sometimes they claim that the weapons were near the place but they are too incompetent to use the weapons correctly so they hit those places by accident.

This is where you lose all credibility. Then again your anti-Israel rants usually lack any semblance of logic. If weapons are stored there they are valid targets, end of story.

Maybe the UN should not hand the weapons it finds back to Hamas ...

originally posted by: rickymouse
How many percent of the dead were soldiers and how many were regular citizens. That would be my interest, how many percent were people not fighting this war.

Unfortunately it's hard to tell since it's a part of Hamas agenda (by the numbers) to maximize civilian casualties and minimize militants deaths, to make Israel look bad.

I even heard Hamas militants are wearing normal civil clothes, to indiscriminate them from the population and it makes it easier for them not being a target out there, and camouflage themselves among the civilians. And when they fire rockets and then getting bombed, and you see a dead body, how do you know it's a militant or not? I mean... How can you prove either of them? The UN gets their numbers by the authorities in Gaza and the numbers they provide, which is Hamas itself.

By the way, here's another question. How can you know for sure that civilians who have died in Gaza out of natural causes (old age, diseases, accidents etc.) are not included in the list of deaths?

People don't get how sophisticated the warfare in Gaza is, in this 21th century social media war which is mainly about PR and gaining global support. Luckily the numbers give a fair indication of the reality.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

What makes you think they want to occupy it again?

Because Israel has been caught trying to sell the natural gas that is under Gaza.

a reply to: buster2010

Dear buster2010,

Hello, good to see you. I can count on you to take a little different stance. I'm glad you dropped by.

If you read the NYT article it says the the UN's number for civilians dead is 72%.

Yes, it also says Israel's number for civilians dead is somewhere in the low 50% range. The question of the UN's objectivity in this matter may be discussed in another thread.

This shows that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians.

No, it doesn't. It could be caused by the fact that there are many more "civilians" than there are armed Hamas soldiers. Besides, assume for a second that the IDF is targeting civilians, even with that 30% of the dead are Hamas? Gaza has about 1.8 million people. So if those numbers are right, there are over 500,000 Hamas fighters in Gaza. I don't think you believe it.

So, as I said, it doesn't show Israel is targeting civilians. But I'm glad to see that you seem, at least so far, to agree with me that Israel is not targeting women and children, just "innocents." It's a step, I guess.

Israel is automatically lumping males in a certain age range as militants they are doing this to cover the number of civilians killed.

I don't believe that's what the article said.

When you go to fight in a city it is an accepted fact that you are going to lose people there is no way around it. You just have to learn to accept those loses to get the job done.

No way around sending your troops in to be killed? Of course there are. Demand surrender or there will be massive bombing strikes, artillery barrages, oh, there are choices. I understand Muhammad used a siege, starving everyone in the city.

In 1977, Protocol I was adopted as an amendment to the Geneva Conventions, prohibiting the deliberate or indiscriminate attack of civilians and civilian objects, even if the area contained military objectives, and the attacking force must take precautions and steps to spare the lives of civilians and civilian objects as possible.

However, forces occupying near densely populated areas must avoid locating military objectives near or in densely populated areas and endeavor to remove civilians from the vicinity of military objectives. Failure to do so would cause a higher civilian death toll resulting from bombardment by the attacking force and the defenders would be held responsible, even criminally liable, for these deaths.

en.wikipedia.org...

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: buster2010
Even if they have stored weapons in these places you cannot target them. It is a violation of international law the UN has already stated that. Israel is not above the law. Also a vast majority of the time Israel claims there was weapons stored there but never proves it sometimes they claim that the weapons were near the place but they are too incompetent to use the weapons correctly so they hit those places by accident.

This is where you lose all credibility. Then again your anti-Israel rants usually lack any semblance of logic. If weapons are stored there they are valid targets, end of story.

Maybe the UN should not hand the weapons it finds back to Hamas ...

Wrong in war there are places that are not allowed to be military targets. Also the UN has to give the weapons back to the government of Gaza and even if you don't like Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Israel has said that many times the rockets are launched from an area that is near the school but they attack the school anyway. When they attacked one school it was because a person they wanted to kill was riding on a motorcycle near the school. Why is it these killers that run Israel couldn't wait till he was a safe distance from the school? And like I said Israel is not above the law even though supporters like you think they are.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: vonclod
While I do not believe they are purposely targeting women and children I think they are not overly concerned when it comes to those casualties.

Yep. I believe this too. If they find an area that they feel needs to be hit, it doesn't matter to them that the area is populated with women and children. That's not the same thing as purposefully targeting, but it isn't much better.

It does matter, that is why Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent civilian casualties. They literally drop pamphlets warning of attacks, they call them and warn them, and they drop door knockers letting them know an attack is imminent.

a reply to: charles1952

Sorry, this thead is almost hoax worthy.

They blew up four kids on an empty stretch of beach. They id'd their targets, hit them and then hit them on the reatrea. 4 kids playing soccer on a stretch of beach. If they DIDN'T target them (year right) then that tells us they are firing at anyone indiscriminately, if that's the case then we know they don't care to kill innocent civilians.

So best case they are killing indiscriminately and worst case they are intentionally killing kids and civilians.

Israel's propaganda aside, we know they are. Hell, an Israeli IDF whistle blower admitted they fired on retreating civilians.

So let's hoax this b.s. thread.

430+ dead Palestinians civilians.. 7 or more UN refugee schools and hospitals bombed. Don't try to lie to us OP. Those weren't all accidents.

I certainly hope that is the case as nothing less should be expected from an advanced western backed nation who has been supplied with some of the most advanced weapons known to man. With great power comes great responsibility. In this day and age I wouldn't even expect less from 3rd world nations as it is the 21st century and standards of what is acceptable in war have hopefully changed.