One Gaza Issue Resolved. Israel Not Targeting Women and Children.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Fair enough.

But turning a blind eye towards the actions of one side, while condemning the other side is appropriate? Is honesty? Is denying ignorance? Is that intellectual honesty?

Both sides are far from innocent.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Sure buddy. What I am not trying to do, is sit silently while a population of people get tormented and bullied off their own property.

Yet, I haven't seen you start any threads on any other of the areas of conflict in the world. Solely, Israel. Not a single thread about actual genocide occurring in the Sudan, or posts about Grand River, or the ongoing Gitxsan and Tsimshian conflict closer to home. Why is that?

a reply to: bbracken677

And, as I posted a couple of times before, but nobody answers the question: Should Israel allow Hamas to fire these missiles into Israel with impunity?

I have stated many times that Hamas firing rockets into Israel is wrong. Yet, that does not give the IDF an excuse in the callous killing of civilians. They are better trained in defence and attack tactics than that. IDF are one of the top 5 military in the world. Israel has a right to defend themselves, and Palestine has a right to self determination. But the callous killing committed by the IDF is not one of those ways of defence. Anybody with a moral compass will agree without having to cite international laws that defy the Geneva Conventions to back up the fact that how Israel has gone about defending itself is wrong.

Again, Israel has a right to defend themselves; not murder civilians.

You still have not addressed the stats, except for merely stating that if they (Israel) were not targeting women and children the numbers would be lower. Address the numbers from the OP in light of the question above and the fact that Hamas is firing their missiles from schools and hospitals, or next to them.

I was never one of those people who claimed Israel was purposely targeting only women and children. It wasn't my dog in that fight and frankly; I like those stats in the links although it doesn't do anything to change the moral composition of the situation other than a pushing back of the goal post. So again, I don't care about discussing that "wag the dog" topic ATM. I care about discussing the fact that innocent civilians have died at a disproportionately high rate in the past few weeks and if that were not true then the numbers would be lower. We are still talking numbers right....???

The fact is, war is hell and civilians die. Funny how the US and Israel are the only countries/people that are held responsible for civilian deaths. Everyone else who kills civilians are given a virtual pass.

I don't know WTH your words have to do with me. But I will say this: I totally agree with you here re: other nations kill civilians. You see my friend, I like to shoot my arrow straight down the middle - How about you? I have a lot to say about many other nations as well. But right now this thread revolves around these two entities: Israel and Palestine. On a side note: I had a really good time in Israel and was treated well, and yet, I do not allow my personal affiliations distort facts. I am a global patriot.

Also, there is no war there. Israel is a nation; Palestine is an occupied state.

Has there been an uproar at anytime when Hamas killed civilians? What about Hezbollah? What about Syria? What about any nation in the Middle East? What about any nation in Africa? What about any other nation in the world?

Again, a little off topic. Perhaps if you lived outside of the good ol' U.S of A and the ATS "bubble of awareness," you might come to be very surprised what the answer to your questions are. Short answer to all your questions: YES, there has been huge uproars by many throughout the world. Maybe just not where you live tho and that is why you had to ask.

Don't get me wrong. I would prefer there not be war. I would prefer there not be crime, greed, murder, etc etc. I grew up during the peace/love movement... Not only have we not lived up to our potential, but it seems we have gotten worse. I went to a candle light vigil the night Lennon was killed (or was it the next night). There was a time I believed we could give peace a chance.

I no longer believe that.

I was born way after those times you mentioned, but I'm a huge Beatles fan (both of their music and metaphysics). We will never live up to those ideals as long as people justify wrong because of choosing sides. We need more global patriots instead of national patriots, yeah?

Basically, both Palestinian's Hamas and Israel's Likud parties can go **** themselves! So now that I got that out of the way, let's discuss morals instead of rights and statistics.

Btw, you still haven't shared your thoughts about this video of two teens being executed by an IDF sniper for no apparent reason. Quick question concerning this video link using your own words in the first paragraph of your response (thought process):

Should 'Palestinian family members' allow Israel to fire these 'bullets' into 'the heads of those two teenagers' with impunity?

As you watch this video, I would like you to contemplate your own thought process.


www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: Involutionist
With all due respect, your argument is puff...

I have stated many times that Hamas firing rockets into Israel is wrong. Yet, that does not give the IDF an excuse in the callous killing of civilians...

While this does not legally make an assumption...your subsequent incorporation of this proposed-assumption...as 'fact'...in support of the remainder of an argument...is a subversive measure that transposes 'speculation' into 'fact'...in the eyes/minds of untrained readers...
What's the subsequent assumption?...-...

"the IDF are callously killing civilians"
"the callous killing committed by the IDF is not one of those ways of defence"

You further take the unsubstantiated/unproven assumption (above) and use it as a basis to judge and determine the value/integrity of any opinion opposed to your own, in this matter...

"Anybody with a moral compass will agree...that how Israel has gone about defending itself is wrong"

You have, thus, labeled/accused/adjudged anyone that disagrees with you (on this matter - AND - based upon the aforenoted Assumptions) morally disoriented/dispossesed.

Are you aware of any military action where the "murder" of civilians is somehow considered - OK?

In my opinion - there has never been a military action when/where the deaths of innocent civilians...was OK...

But - guess what?... That is the history of war.
That is the freaking history of WAR on this planet...
It happens...
Right or Wrong...it is one of the few things you can ABSOLUTELY count on...in War...
War Is Not...nor ever has been...Fair...
War is about Winning...and/or Survival.

If I am bigger than you...and you start taking pot-shots at my head, and at my family and friends and neighbors...with pellet and .22 caliber rifles...
...And, I have bazookas and .50 caliber rifles, and canons... I will probably respond, initially, by trying to discourage you from any further acts of terrorism...
If that, however, does not stop you - and you continue the barrage, or even escalate the same... Who is to say I am wrong...for bringing in my bigger guns...?
The ENTIRE point of my exercise/activities...is to get...you...to...stop - and, hopefully, discourage you from ever doing it, again.

You further stated -

"I care about discussing the fact that innocent civilians have died at a disproportionately high rate in the past few weeks and if that were not true then the numbers would be lower."

Again - a biased/prejudicial assumption...that presumes to annul the facts presented in the OP...without presenting evidences/argument for proof.

1st - you have no idea 'WHO' or 'what quantity' of the civilians that died, are innocent...
You can only/merely take someone-else's word for it...and...(get ready for it)...Assume...

2nd - what numbers would be lower?
Do you think immediate (tactically or strategically appropriate) response/s to rocket launches...after tracking them, mathematically...by trajectory/ies...somehow allows for all possibilities (especially when/if the rockets are deliberately launched from populated/residential/etc...areas)?

Here's a real...down-to-earth-question...

How many of Your family members would need to be killed...by terrorist activities...before YOU would be justified in trying (or - condoning, or asking the authorities) to stop the terrorists...AT ANY/ALL COST/S?

Sitting in a...safe house...across the globe...kinda makes it easy to discuss "fair play" and "innocent civilians"...
But...if it were Your neighborhood/city being attacked...by a group that had/has vowed to erase the memory of your name & family from every volume of the history of this planet...do you think you'd look at your city administrators, saying -
"Be Nice... Some of them don't mean it... It's only a few of them that are really bad...
"Ooooops - my mom and dad were in that house...
"Well ---- I don't care... I am a humanist that has progressed beyond the fallible belief that my family is any more important than ANYONE-ELSE... ... ... So...
"Let's play nice, and make sure we ONLY GET THE ONES that sent that rocket/suicide-bomb over.
"Don't - AND I MEAN - REALLY! - DO NOT do anything, unless you're absolutely certain that you're getting the bad guys & ONLY the bad guys...
"I don't really care about the rest of my family, or myself...
"I just don't think it's right to accidentally make the wrong people pay for the atrocities against m....
(BOOOOOMMM!!!!)"

Exaggerated? Who knows...? Seems apropos to me...but - I could be off...

...
On another note...though...
Global Patriot?
What is that?
Who's side are you on?
Your own?
EveryOne's?
Seems that 'your side' is just...'your way of seeing things'.
How is that...global?
Do you want to be on my side?
...on bbracken677's side?
...Charles1952's side?
Humanity's side?
The Earth's side?
Christianity's - Islam's - Hindi's - Buddhism's - Shamanism's - Native Americans' - Aboriginals' - BRIC's - Great Britain's - Nigeria's - South Africa's - China's - Russia's - Ukraine's - Syria's - global warming's - anti-fracking - - ...
... ...What side...(or - Where)...might a 'global patriot'...be found...on?

...Bring 'em all together...?
How?
When?
With....WHAT?

Is there a plan you want to tell us about?

It seems that, here, you are just...arguing...

If this response appears to be attacking...You... I apologize.
I am truly, contesting/probing your argument, though...and...hopefully, said contest will result in meaningful dialog.

Regards,
WanDash

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: Humanity4Ever
a reply to: SuperFrog

It was left wing in 2005 when Israel handed over control of Gaza to Fatah and relinquished additional territory by forcefully removing 40,000 jewish settlers.

That approach worked out really well.

You know those territory are unlawfully occupied - do you?

Those settlements were built on land that does not belongs to them and whole world still condemns current Israel government on CONTINUING of building on occupied territory.

Just imagine world outcry if USA started building USA cities in Iraq or Afghanistan, if you unable to understand what occupied really means.

sounds like the israeli's are illegally in palestine.

hmmmm, why don't they get amnesty or deported? or at least food stamps if they stay.

why can't they stay? if they want to live in a prison, let them!

a reply to: WanDash

A long winded post, that really doesn't get around the FACT that the IDF (defence? My arse!) deliberately targets unarmed civilians. Hell, they even like to go on Facebook, Instagram and other social media sites boasting about it!

There is plenty of video footage shot over the years clearly showing the IDF beating, shooting at or murdering unarmed Palestinians. The proof is there and has been long before this latest round or killing, just don't expect to see any of it on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, BBC etc...etc. Now, I wonder why that is?

a reply to: WanDash

why is as i was reading this :

Sitting in a...safe house...across the globe...kinda makes it easy to discuss "fair play" and "innocent civilians"... But...if it were Your neighborhood/city being attacked...by a group that had/has vowed to erase the memory of your name & family from every volume of the history of this planet...do you think you'd look at your city administrators, saying - "Be Nice... Some of them don't mean it... It's only a few of them that are really bad... "Ooooops - my mom and dad were in that house... "Well ---- I don't care... I am a humanist that has progressed beyond the fallible belief that my family is any more important than ANYONE-ELSE... ...

that i had a flash in my mind of what is going on in Ferguson at the moment

originally posted by: Britguy
...A long winded post, that really doesn't get around the FACT that the IDF (defence? My arse!) deliberately targets unarmed civilians. Hell, they even like to go on Facebook, Instagram and other social media sites boasting about it!

...

Thanks for the response, Britguy
What you count "FACT", and what was assumed as fact in the "comments" I replied to...are assumptions (within the context of this discussion).

When anyone continually evades/avoids the subject under discussion, resorting to 'other times' and 'other crimes', and...saying - "your facts don't matter - I have Belief!" - the purpose of 'conversation/discussion' has lost its value...and...I guess we can see how/why progress is so difficult...to achieve.

This discussion was not about Who is Right and Who is Wrong - but about what story is told by the numbers & statistics of the present conflict... (etcetera)
That is something I can understand.
If you think the numbers have been tampered with...or that the interpretation of that data is skewed - and are willing to invest your time and effort into proving said suspicions --- those are the kinds of 'rebuttals' that would fit within the discussion of the OP.
But...saying "It's a FACT, and I've seen proof... ... ..."... ...

Glad I could give you so many opportunities to laugh out loud.

originally posted by: charles1952
Look nearly anywhere in the world: Cyprus; several countries in Africa; Dearborn, Michigan; parts of France, Germany, England, The Netherlands; the list is lengthy.

In each case, a number of Muslims move into an area of the country and continue to immigrate and have children until there is a majority, or substantial minority, in that one area. It is then announced that Sharia, in one form or another will be enforced in that area and the police are not welcome. That area continues to grow with new immigrants until they gain political or military power. Eventually they gain control of the nation or a recognized part of it.

Israel is hated and reviled because they are the only country to have said, "You cannot have our land, you cannot kill our citizens if they refuse to convert, you can not drive us into exile as ISIL and other groups are doing in several countries. If you try it, we will defend ourselves militarily. We have the weapons and the will to smash you flat, so leave us alone."

They hate Israel because it's the one standing up to the bully, and the world is ashamed that they haven't the nerve to do it themselves.

Dear Charles,

just replace Muslim with Jews in your post and you have explained in details creation of Israel. Great job!

BTW, wonder why moderators have left this racist post, and what antisemitism post would be if you replace Muslim with Jews.

I had no idea that Michigan, USA has sharia law, or any other places you mentioned. Care to provide supporting evidence??

But I for sure know and can provide proof that racist state Israel is recognized as Jewish state - everyone else is second-grade citizen...

ps. While reading above post again, I can't take off my head that USA should send rather multiple shipments of Viagra to Israel rather then weapons. It might help you more 'feel secure' and might help you fight better off so vicious enemy who you can't eradicated with best weapons in the world. /sarcasm off

Interesting methodology!

So according to you, Israel is intentionally targeting civilians, since he majority of casualties are civilians. And no, this isn't a matter of Israeli given numbers vs Palestinian given numbers, and this is discounting the 50 or so as of yet not verified deaths of Palestinians by Hamas. Even the the Israeli ITIC's "calculated" number goes up to 70% (the UN's OCHA and the Gaza Health Ministry and PCHR have it at 80%), and since the IDF doesn't care enough to keep a tally of (Palestinian) civilian kills, we can't ask them.

More so, this means that Hamas is NOT intentionally targetting civilians, because so far, only 3 civilians vs 64 IDF soldiers (or 164 if you want to believe Hamas) have been killed.

a reply to: WanDash

I stopped reading your post after these words

With all due respect, your argument is puff...

originally posted by: Involutionist
...I stopped reading your post after these words

"With all due respect, your argument is puff..."

Thanks for the notice, Involutionist
Perhaps we'll meet again, and something said will be worth consideration.
Regards,
WanDash

a reply to: WanDash

Nice reply. Classy actually, as opposed to many who post here.

Thank you for upholding my faith in humanity. No sarcasm either.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: BelowLowAnnouncement

Dear BelowLowAnnouncement,

That's an interesting thought. Thank you for that, it hadn't crossed my mind.

First, the facts that I have come from my source articles and a couple of others that say the same thing. You've got all the facts I do.

But the idea that Israel is saying "We want to end up with X% women dead, Y% men under 14 dead, and at least Z% men between the ages of 20 and 48 dead," Never occurred to me.

Just because I can't find any reason to fight that way, and I've never heard of it happening before, isn't absolutely proof that it isn't happening here. But I have to say that I'm just scratching my head and asking "What sense would that policy make?" And how would they know the ages of the people that died? Do they count as dead if they're badly wounded? And I can't believe that an army commander would say " Men, we've killed fewer women than our quota. Intelligence tells us that Reema's Burkha Boutique is having a sale today, go bomb that place flat and we'll be up to quota for women."

Or perhaps I've misunderstood you.

With respect,
Charles1952

I think you mostly understood me, but I wasn't going to mention silly things like quotas, do they have those for men they kill too? I wouldn't have believed so, I'd call it more indiscriminate killing. Or did you pull that hypothetical situation out of mid-air and use it to dismiss what I said?

Do I honestly believe Israel are targetting women and children? No, I don't think I do. Do I believe they care/will stop if women and children get in the way? NOPE.

Either way, love your postings on these boards charles; yours is usually the voice of reason, even if I often incorrectly interpret it as condescending

a reply to: BelowLowAnnouncement

Dear BelowLowAnnouncement,

Thank you for your thoughtful and subtly penetrating reply. You've pointed out a symptom of one of my biggest faults. That fault is impatience. If I run across someone who wants to talk, instead of shout, and wants to teach and learn, instead of reciting rather mindless slogans, I'll talk with him for half a dozen pages of two person conversation. I've done it.

What I haven't mastered yet is the fairly simple task of not fighting back against a skunk. We're all uninformed, or ignorant, about certain subjects. I love talking to people who can teach me things or challenge my thinking. But if I wanted to be barked at, I'd buy a Peke or something.

If I have condescended to you in any way, I'm very sorry. For the others who may feel condescension from me, be assured, I'll try harder not to fight with skunks.

On the subject of caring whether civilians are killed, I'm glad you don't feel that Israel goes looking for women and the pilots don't say "I know we're supposed to hit that rocket factory, but look! There are 6 women over there! let's change plans." And, really, that's all I've been saying from the OP on. Despite claims that Israel is targeting women and children, they're not.

One of the reasons I've only lightly touched on civilian casualties, is because no one knows what's going on. It's probably another topic, but the UNRWA, and foreign press are controlled or monitored by Hamas. Reporters who send out unfavorable stories are kicked out. Some deaths are staged and fake, the surrounding areas are often dressed up to make more sympathetic pictures. But, as I say, that may be another thread.

But if you're looking for a place to stay in Gaza, try the Gaza Grand Palace Hotel, a five star luxury hotel with about 20 stories. They bake cakes so tall, that they need a man lift to cut them. And visit the new luxury mall when you're there. I wonder about their construction when building materials are in such short supply, but it's their choice.

With absolutely no condescension to anyone, but

With respect,
Charles

a reply to: bbracken677
Thank you, bbracken667
Honestly, I was in the process of penning a similar note to you...a day or two ago, and was sidetracked in responding to one of your respondents...
Funny how things work out.
I have been genuinely humbled at your (and others') grace in this thread.
There seem to be significant belief systems challenged - and emotional responses go into overdrive when that happens... (at least, that's what I'm hoping explains some of the rhetoric... !)

In any case - Thanks again - Be Well...and, see ya 'round.

a reply to: charles1952

Nothing to apologize for my friend; the fact you took what I said right on the chin with consideration speaks volumes about you. Indeed you've made me feel that I'm the one to apologize; you see, where I hail from I deal more with smart-asses than smart people. Maybe next time I'll leave my suppositions at the door and you can leave your impatience at the door.

And I genuinely meant what I said about your posts; they're like a life-giving breeze, washing away the stench of what ATS has become over the last 3 years.

a reply to: BelowLowAnnouncement

Dear BelowLowAnnouncement,

I'm stunned. I can't say I'm speechless because that only happened when a station wagon broadsided my motorcycle. (Kind of a funny story, that. Maybe someday.)

I typed that only to try to gather my wits. You know, stalling for time.

Don't you dare apologize, you were correct in every detail. Save your apologies for a time if you ever happen to be wrong.

The "fresh breeze?" I'm sad and happy. I'm happy that I'm doing something that strikes you as right, and I'm sad that there's so much bitterness, and anger here that I'm unusual.

As I said, I love "talking with people." There is nothing in the world more important than a person. Cultures, religions, political systems, even the earth itself, will all eventually die out. But a person is immortal and deserves respect and honor, and whatever help we can provide.

OK, no more impatience. I don't know what more there is to be said here. But, I'll keep checking.

With respect,
Charles1952

to the OP; would it be correct to say that Israel is occasionally targeting women and children in Gaza?

I didn't see anybody claiming Israel is targeting civilians every single time but isn't it awful enough they are doing it now and then only?

and most of the attacks on civilians cannot even be justified with "human shield" rhetoric that Israel push so eagerly and that some members accepted as whole truth.

a reply to: demus

Dear demus,

Hi, guy! I was thinking of folding for the day, it's 1:30 a. m. here, but you've raised a good question which I think pinpoints the difficulty we're all having in understanding each other.

would it be correct to say that Israel is occasionally targeting women and children in Gaza?

The problem seems to be in the word "targeting." It seems that some here believe it to mean that Israel is firing into Gaza knowing there is a good chance that civilians will be killed. For me it means that women and children have become "targets." As an example, say that an Israeli plane still has some unused bombs. As it's flying back, they see a group of women, showing their babies to each other.

If the pilot says, "Hey! That group of women is on our target list, let's get them." I would see that as targeting. But if they get a radio call saying that a rocket launching site had just been assembled at such and such a place, they go bomb the site, and discover that a piece of bomb shrapnel killed a three year old, I don't see that as targeting.

The difference here is intent, and what steps have been taken to protect people.

As I said above, we really don't have solid information on the casualties in Gaza. All of the numbers come from Hamas, and I am convinced that some are faked. How many? Who knows?

What I'm trying to do is question the claim, so often made, that Israel is targeting women and children. If they were, that's clearly wrong and should entail punishment for those involved. But I'm inclined to think the claim is more emotional propaganda than anything else.

With respect,
Charles1952