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Fla. church cancels gay man's funeral

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posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 07:45 PM
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a reply to: jrod

You do not know me good sir. Not at all. You do not know how I helped my two lesbian friends campaign for equal marriage rights because I knew they loved each other and wanted to get married. That is a state issue. Churches are there own thing and not part of the state. You trying to tell a church what to believe and how to act is just as bad as someone trying to tell you what to believe and how to act. They can choose to do what they want just like you can choose to do what you want. It is called freedom. You dont like religion or a certain church. Then dont go to that church. I will fight you trying to make a church or anyone conform to you standards just like I will fight any church that tries to take away your fundamental rights and make you live to their standards. Last time I checked churches and religions are not an apparatus of the state. A funeral in a certain church is not a fundamental right.

Well anyways have a great day and keep believing what you want. It is your right. I hope you live a happy life.




posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 07:52 PM
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originally posted by: karmicecstasy
This was a church. While I do not personally agree with the church. It is their right to deny this family the use of the church for something they disagree with. There are plenty of funeral homes and probably other churches that would allow the funeral. While its a shame their first choice was denied to them. They have other choices. So besides the late decision of the church, that was a douche move to do it right before the start of the funeral, I see this as a non issue.

That right could get a big kick in the backside very soon once the law catches up with itself, much of what I have read, is that discriminatory laws are very much subject to change. In the US the federal laws don't have anything much to cover churches discriminating where they see fit, it's probably much the same in the UK, except here any law is the law of the land. In some American states they may see fit to take discrimination to the ultimate, cradle to the grave, I see big problems there.
That could force churches to do formal counselling on burial as most of them do before marriage, for example.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 07:55 PM
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a reply to: ChaosComplex

I don't think it is just your area, I can't say for sure I could probably count the times I have attended church in my lifetime on my fingers and toes, but it seems the jack arses outnumber good folk just about anywhere you go. Still I know that or at least I hope that that kind of hate isn't what church is supposed to be about. Just because they call themselves Christian doesn't mean they act like it or even know how they are supposed to act. I don't have a problem with true Christians unfortunately I have only met a handful of them in my lifetime.

I sincerely hope his congregation doesn't stand for his behavior maybe this publicity will at least send a message.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 07:58 PM
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originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: ChaosComplex

I don't think it is just your area, I can't say for sure I could probably count the times I have attended church in my lifetime on my fingers and toes, but it seems the jack arses outnumber good folk just about anywhere you go. Still I know that or at least I hope that that kind of hate isn't what church is supposed to be about. Just because they call themselves Christian doesn't mean they act like it or even know how they are supposed to act. I don't have a problem with true Christians unfortunately I have only met a handful of them in my lifetime.

I sincerely hope his congregation doesn't stand for his behavior maybe this publicity will at least send a message.





posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 08:01 PM
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Funerals shouldn't be held in churches. Churches are for human sacrifices and ridiculous rantings of mental patients. Never-the-less, this arsehole of a priest is either the epitome of his cult, or a glaring display of the opposite.

Can anyone tell what a christian is suppose to even be these days?



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 08:02 PM
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a reply to: karmicecstasy

My experience is with anyone who says "I support gay rights but..." is those people do not support gay rights and throw that out there to make it sound like they are not a closet bigot.

That is great, I really do not care about personal story. If this preacher were to pull a move like this in my hometown, then he would loose his congregation.

Had he had a problem with a gay person having a funeral at his church, then he needs to have a contract that specifies this NOT wait until the last minute and cancel the funeral service. It may be his 'right', however morally it was a deplorable thing to do.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 08:08 PM
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originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: karmicecstasy

NOT wait until the last minute and cancel the funeral service. It may be his 'right', however morally it was a deplorable thing to do.


I do not disagree with you on that. I said that was a douche move. And I never said I agree with the priest who did this. Just that he has the right to believe what he believes. If you want LGBT people to be equal and have the right to believe and do what they want with who they want. Then you have to allow religious people to believe and do what they want. As long as it does not harm you in a physical manner. Freedom goes both ways.
edit on 9-8-2014 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)

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edit on 9-8-2014 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Grimpachi
...Just because they call themselves Christian doesn't mean they act like it or even know how they are supposed to act.
...
I sincerely hope his congregation doesn't stand for his behavior maybe this publicity will at least send a message.

I believe your first quoted statement hit the Proverbial nail on the head.

As to the second quoted statement - there is also the possibility that the minister was strong-armed (threatened with his job) once some of the Board', deacons, or other influential members (read - loud mouths or financial supporters) of the congregation got wind of what was going on...
These types of scenarios are far from uncommon.
Then again - you could be entirely correct, and this was simply the exercise of a man who didn't/doesn't take his job seriously enough.

PS: If I was the man who died...and, prior to death, knew that this minister held me in such regard...I would probably ask that my funeral/memorial be presided over by someone-else, &/or somewhere-else.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 09:12 PM
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Double Post
edit on 8/9/2014 by ChaosComplex because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 09:13 PM
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originally posted by: karmicecstasy
If you want LGBT people to be equal and have the right to believe and do what they want with who they want. Then you have to allow religious people to believe and do what they want. As long as it does not harm you in a physical manner. Freedom goes both ways.

No, no, no. Way off.

I can see what you're getting at, as practicing any religion is accepted and protected in the United States of America. Just as it should be. No one should be able to dictate beliefs someone chooses to have.

HOWEVER

Is being openly gay and going about your life in a normal manner really qualified as a 'freedom' or 'right', to be granted to someone in order for them to feel 'equal'? Nope. Not even close. Last time I checked, homosexuality wasn't a choice any more than being born with a crooked eye, being born to a certain race, or speaking with a lisp.

'Freedom' and 'rights' are words that apply to choices, like the choice to speak up on an issue (freedom of speech) or the choice to own a gun (right to bear arms) or the right to pick and choose parts of a certain 'holy' book to follow, while dismissing whatever parts you don't have the intestinal fortitude to uphold. The way your brain functions in terms of sexual attraction towards either sex shouldn't need to be protected by either of these concepts.

edit on 8/9/2014 by ChaosComplex because: (no reason given)

edit on 8/9/2014 by ChaosComplex because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: karmicecstasy

I am a realist. No one is created equal and I do think many of those who push gay rights take it too far. As do certain religions groups. It goes both ways and I do not think any legal action needs to be taken.

The pastor who is responsible for this is one sorry excuse for a person. Maybe some of his flock will see him for who he really is after this and tithe elsewhere.
edit on 9-8-2014 by jrod because: a



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 09:30 PM
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Why the hell would the family of the gay person want to have the funeral in a church? Seriously, they are spitting on the gay person's corpse. Have the service in a decent funeral home. It is in my will that I am not to be trodded about, and have some voodoo incense and blabla ceremony in a church when I go. I would rather people attend a party rather than a funeral. Remember the good times, get blasted out of your mind, rather than sobbing while some priest pretends to know anything about me or my life attemps some christian/catholic voodoo ceremony



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 09:45 PM
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a reply to: smurfy
There is a federal law that protects all churches and minsters. It is called the Ministerial exception. In short it simply states that no law, can force a church or a minister to violate their tenant of faith. It exempts all churches from the anti-discrimination lawsuits, and bars the government from interfering in Church matters. It cements the barrier that is the separation between church and state. And as long as the actions of the church is not a criminal/felony, then the state pretty much can not do anything. So yes a church can legally discriminate against any one it feels is in violation of its faith and get away with it.

And the consequences of if the state chooses to pursue this matter can have far reaching ramifications, as such could be used as justification for churches then to use the pulpit to direct the body politic.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 10:09 PM
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originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: smurfy
There is a federal law that protects all churches and minsters. It is called the Ministerial exception. In short it simply states that no law, can force a church or a minister to violate their tenant of faith. It exempts all churches from the anti-discrimination lawsuits, and bars the government from interfering in Church matters. It cements the barrier that is the separation between church and state. And as long as the actions of the church is not a criminal/felony, then the state pretty much can not do anything. So yes a church can legally discriminate against any one it feels is in violation of its faith and get away with it.

And the consequences of if the state chooses to pursue this matter can have far reaching ramifications, as such could be used as justification for churches then to use the pulpit to direct the body politic.


Good. Then we can finally have a decent war to rid ourselves of the religious scourge that plagues us all.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 10:36 PM
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originally posted by: ChaosComplex

originally posted by: karmicecstasy
If you want LGBT people to be equal and have the right to believe and do what they want with who they want. Then you have to allow religious people to believe and do what they want. As long as it does not harm you in a physical manner. Freedom goes both ways.

No, no, no. Way off.

I can see what you're getting at, as practicing any religion is accepted and protected in the United States of America. Just as it should be. No one should be able to dictate beliefs someone chooses to have.

HOWEVER

Is being openly gay and going about your life in a normal manner really qualified as a 'freedom' or 'right', to be granted to someone in order for them to feel 'equal'? Nope. Not even close. Last time I checked, homosexuality wasn't a choice any more than being born with a crooked eye, being born to a certain race, or speaking with a lisp.

'Freedom' and 'rights' are words that apply to choices, like the choice to speak up on an issue (freedom of speech) or the choice to own a gun (right to bear arms) or the right to pick and choose parts of a certain 'holy' book to follow, while dismissing whatever parts you don't have the intestinal fortitude to uphold. The way your brain functions in terms of sexual attraction towards either sex shouldn't need to be protected by either of these concepts.


I would agree with you but that is not what we are talking about. This is not about being openly gay and going about your life in a normal manner. I was not talking about a mans right to be homosexual. I was talking about his right to have a funeral in this church. I would not want the church to dictate what I can and can not do in my bedroom. So I will not try to dictate to a religion what they can do in their own church. That is what this is about.
edit on 9-8-2014 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-8-2014 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-8-2014 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 10:43 PM
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originally posted by: sdcigarpig
It cements the barrier that is the separation between church and state.

Congress regularly has an opening prayer. Kinda shoots down the idea that there is any separation between the two.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 10:47 PM
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originally posted by: karmicecstasy
I was not talking about a mans right to be homosexual.

Well by the way your response was worded:

If you want LGBT people to be equal and have the right to believe and do what they want with who they want.

It sounded to me like you were equating a gay persons sexual preferences to a right. My mistake if I misunderstood what you were getting at.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 10:52 PM
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a reply to: BasementWarriorKryptonite
You do not want that to happen. No one would. Consider this, how much money does the people have, compared to that of a minister and the different churches? Many of the churches could tap assets and still have money to spare, being able to out spend and out do many of the politicians around. Far better to keep that wall up and the 2 seperated, than get someone in office who is going to have the backing of the church or worse, a foreign power, like say the pope, dictating our laws and policies.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 11:06 PM
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a reply to: ChaosComplex

By equal I meant under the law. The right to believe and do what you want with who you want applies to everyone. But I see how you read it the way you read it. So thank you for being civil to me during this conversation.

The last thing I want to say on the subject is this. I essentially took both sides in the argument. Because I believe both sides are right in their own way. Like I said in my first post. Eventually people from both sides end up hating me lol. Its just the way of the world these days. I just refuse to live in a black and white world. I like it in the grey. Where everyone believe what they want and are respected for their differences. The good and the bad. As long as those beliefs are not causing anyone bodily harm. Making everyone believe in only what you believe never turns out good in the end. No matter how good your beliefs started in the beginning. This applies to all sides in this new world we live in.

Good day to everyone taking part in this thread. I have said everything I wanted on the subject. I bow out. Best of luck to everyone.



posted on Aug, 9 2014 @ 11:09 PM
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originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: BasementWarriorKryptonite
You do not want that to happen. No one would. Consider this, how much money does the people have, compared to that of a minister and the different churches? Many of the churches could tap assets and still have money to spare, being able to out spend and out do many of the politicians around. Far better to keep that wall up and the 2 seperated, than get someone in office who is going to have the backing of the church or worse, a foreign power, like say the pope, dictating our laws and policies.


No, you're right - I really don't want it to happen. But the religious of the world just won't stop. Whether I want a war with them or not isn't the point. They want a war with me.




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