Traumatized by Christian Dogma & The Evangelical "Good News Club"

I don't think going out of your way to frighten children with the idea of Hell is a particularly brilliant idea, especially if it's done out of context. But I don't see a way to escape the pretty clear Biblical teaching (if you're a Christian) that there is some sort of torment (or at least separation from God) if one is a sinner, which, in theory, everyone above the age of accountability is.

If you're not a Christian, you might believe in reincarnation, which teaches that if you're nasty, you might end up as a bug. Or, you might be Muslim, which isn't dissimilar to Christianity as regards their ideas of the afterlife. Or you might be an atheist; atheism logically leads to the conclusion that you are completely gone when you die. It also logically leads to the conclusion that each individual has no real objective value or worth; that everyone is a cosmic accident that is meaningless in the big scheme of things.

Ultimately, I don't know of any worldview that doesn't teach something that can be pretty damaging to your "self-esteem" if taken out of context or even dwelt upon in isolation. Personally, I find the idea that we are cosmic accidents bracing; I don't think it would do lasting damage to my self-esteem to be an atheist. Likewise, the Christian idea that we aren't worthy to be in the presence of God for eternity doesn't particularly bother me. I think Chronogoblin was onto something: you've missed the picture if all you're seeing is hellfire.

For the most part, I think blaming our self-esteem issues on some external formative event is largely a waste of time. Yeah, maybe it did mess up our childhood psyche. So what? That's outside of our control. We're human beings; not animals. We're not defined by our upbringing or our circumstances. We are in control of ourselves, and we can overcome our emotional and psychological insecurities and doubts and seize the day to triumph over life! And anyone preaching differently hates self-determination and newborn kittens

originally posted by: Cruithneach
[SNIP]

Ah, yes, an entirely different way to abuse children, but I had that one, too. And my father used the bible to justify the welts on my legs that the kids in school stared at and whispered about. That doesn't discount the religious indoctrination, fear, guilt and shame that I brought into my adulthood, thanks to my strict religious upbringing and thanks to my father...

Morality, however archaic and rigid it may be, has a purpose in healthy societies.

No kidding! Religion does not have the market on morals nor is it necessary for good morals! I'm an atheist with VERY high morals.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

I think reincarnation is one of the most liberating and terror free outcomes post-death. Sure you could reincarnate as a bug or some other lower lifeform, but that isn't so bad. Because at the heart of that idea is that you are getting another chance to get it right. The idea behind reincarnation isn't to dwell on the bad possibilities, because all they are are another chance to get the correct outcome. On a long enough scale, everyone will cross the finish line with reincarnation. As an agnostic looking in at religions, if I were to be asked what the most likely answer to the correct religion is, I'd say it would be Buddhism.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StalkerSolent

I think reincarnation is one of the most liberating and terror free outcomes post-death. Sure you could reincarnate as a bug or some other lower lifeform, but that isn't so bad. Because at the heart of that idea is that you are getting another chance to get it right. The idea behind reincarnation isn't to dwell on the bad possibilities, because all they are are another chance to get the correct outcome. On a long enough scale, everyone will cross the finish line with reincarnation. As an agnostic looking in at religions, if I were to be asked what the most likely answer to the correct religion is, I'd say it would be Buddhism.

Having spent a lot of this summer watching insects die slow and painful deaths due to various forms of insecticide...I'm inclined to disagree. Being reincarnated as a bug would probably be pretty terrible. This is especially true when you realize a bunch of them die almost immediately upon being born, so the chance of being stuck in a vicious cycle of birth-death-birth as an insect seems pretty high

a reply to: StalkerSolent

What's it to you if you understand that a bug's sensory inputs are FAR less finely tuned than a human's? But even if you are locked in that vicious cycle, you will still transcend it at some point. It is never final. Like I said, the ultimate goal for all souls is to be reunited with the source. So even your situation would be a temporary thing. With hell and similar punishments, the effects are eternal. That means, once you've made your bed you have to lie in it. No matter how nasty it may be. The word "eternal" is such a heavy word to include in a scary story about the afterlife, especially for an 8 year old. Even if he doesn't understand what the word fully means.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StalkerSolent

What's it to you if you understand that a bug's sensory inputs are FAR less finely tuned than a human's? But even if you are locked in that vicious cycle, you will still transcend it at some point. It is never final. Like I said, the ultimate goal for all souls is to be reunited with the source. So even your situation would be a temporary thing. With hell and similar punishments, the effects are eternal. That means, once you've made your bed you have to lie in it. No matter how nasty it may be.

Yeah...still...pretty nasty thing to be lying on your back, slowly kicking your life away, even with sensory inputs less finely tuned than a human's. (Are we even sure that's true? Because a lot of insects have good eyesight, for instance; I wouldn't be surprised if they felt pain pretty acutely as well. Hopefully you're right, though.)

And, yeah, huzzah, reincarnation. I don't understand how everyone can transcend it, considering that there always seem to be more bugs than humans. Hmm.

Suddenly DDT sounds like a good idea!

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Look I never said it was true. I just said it is the most appealing when looking at all the various afterlife events across all the religions.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StalkerSolent

Look I never said it was true. I just said it is the most appealing when looking at all the various afterlife events across all the religions.

I know. I just saw a logic chain
I think different people find different things appealing. Some people might be horrified at the thought of reincarnation; others think being a spider would be fun. Some can't find anything scarier than simply not existing; others find it a very normal or even comforting thought.

Be really funny if we all got the afterlife we believed in, wouldn't it? I bet if people believed in that, it would get a lot of Norse pagan cults started pronto!

The teaching of hell fire and damnation isn't as prevalent in many churches today, I was raised with it somewhat , but my mother used it more than my pastors.

It has taken me many years to lose the fear of hell, but it is still in the back of my mind.

I raised my kids Christian, but taught them hell was a mistranslation.

The thought of hell terrified me, but it never stopped me, a sad rebel, I am at that.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

That would be interesting. It would certainly be a more acceptable form of heaven than that one size fits all version the Christians have.

originally posted by: calstorm
a reply to: Nochzwei

I was. My nightmares as a child were full of Satan fear of him and him tempting me to sin and of demons and hell. Also of a man being beaten and nailed to a cross. I would wake up so scared i couldn't even scream although I wanted to. I would then lie in my bed and shake and cry. I was probably six or seven. I was terrified of Satan whispering thoughts into my mind to cause me to sin because I was told that is what he did if you didn't pray enough for gods protection but I was never sure how much was enough and since i would get in trouble, it was clear i didn't pray hard enough.

So yeah, I was in mortal fear of hell.

Would sob uncontrollably over the crucifixion of Christ.

Never had nightmares, but to this day I begin to cry in church, i feel a deep connection to the divine, and the human condition, and I do believe the correct understanding of the gospel of Christ will make you more empathetic.

unfortunately hell is a very real place and to be feared or be aware of, than be in an ignorance is bliss like situation.
a reply to: Stormdancer777

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The few years I spent as Jehovah Witness, I liked the concept there would be an earthly paradise, all things made new again like, it was in the beginning.

Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here: 7 Versions of Hell

www.neatorama.com...#!bBEn2w

originally posted by: Nochzwei
But who are humans to question the will of God.

Who are we? We are those who have evolved to the point where we can question our existence by using something called science which is based on evidence. To question the will of god is a good thing because the will of god is completely random and makes no sense... GASP!!! almost like there is no intelligence behind it at all!
God sure has us fooled, making it seem all random and stuff.
Our god IS an awesome god!

Everything He does is for a reason, even if humans with their limited mind cannot comprehend.

What reason? You say this from the comfort of your own home while all those other people of whom you do not know are suffering from what you would call the 'wrath of god'.
For what reason?
Seems that only humans with limited minds think this crap is gods work due to the sins of man.

Have you ever read the bible?
Read it and unbelieve! (if your mind is not too limited)

All Hail the Mighty THOR!

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Nochzwei

Yet in your scenario God had made yet another blunder by creating man with limited minds. That is one screwed up deity.

In his limitations, god is great!

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I was raised in the same way, and all of my "unexplained" experiences were explained by the idea that evil forces were actively stalking me.

Interestingly, this is what drove me away from such teachings and in a direct course towards God. It was very easy for me to get over the fear part though, I never struggled with that.

The so-called "trauma" of such an upbringing has ended up being one of the most positive and motivational aspects of my life. In the end I actually have gratitude for the learning opportunity, even if I would not raise my own children in the same manner. Which is a moot point given that I wont be raising any children.. but I guess I just find value in places that others can't always see.

Rather than being filled with a seething hatred, I used it to grow. And now, those that preached hellfire, etc. have begun to seek my advice on their "spiritual" matters. Full circle.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The few years I spent as Jehovah Witness, I liked the concept there would be an earthly paradise, all things made new again like, it was in the beginning.

Most heavens sound pleasant and inviting, but at the end of the day they are all exclusive clubs for the truly devout, lucky, chosen, whathaveyou. The appeal of reincarnation is that EVERYONE is destined to reunite with the source. The only difference between you and the person next you is the amount of time and number of reincarnations that it takes before this happens. You don't have to worship a certain religion. You don't have to worship a certain way. Heck you can not have ever even HEARD of reincarnation and you will still come out on top at the end. There is no paradox of being born in a village not exposed to it, dying and not getting a chance to achieve the highest goal in the afterlife all because of your unfortunate luck to be born in that village as opposed to somewhere on the other side of the world that has lived that reality their whole life. Everyone gets to reach the ultimate goal, not just you. There are no winners or losers with reincarnation. There are no demand of how you are to act. What you should eat. What you should wear. What you should do. etc. All that is required is that you be a nice person and all that entails. This is why I firmly believe that if he existed, Jesus was a Buddhist. "Do unto others" is a very Buddhist sounding phrase.

To me, heaven is just like hell. A vaguely described creation from Christians to entice membership. But instead, replace all scary imagery with nice and happy imagery. In this case instead of scaring you into worship, the Christians are bribing you into worship. Both things are terrible reasons to be a Christian. You shouldn't have to be bribed to be a nice person. You should just DO IT because it is the right thing to do. Also, you can not be told, coerced or forced to do it either. You have to come to that conclusion naturally at your own pace. Obviously that won't take one lifetime for most people in the world. The beauty of reincarnation is that you get many chances to come to that realization. THAT is why I view it as the most appealing logically of all the afterlife scenarios.

And some folks wonder why people fear death....all that mentioning of hellfire and brimstone in the bible and various other religious text and even through teaching at Sunday School/Catechism/whatever.

I was raised a Roman Catholic. To this day I have much confusion relevant to that religion and all religions actually. The Bible reads as one of the most violent books ever written. I do agree with the OP, that especially relevant to children, it can all be rather overwhelming and in some instances harmful.

When a child is killed in war or from abuse or at the hands of a pedophile, religious folks will say, "It was Gods will" or "God works in mysterious ways". The new agers will say we create our own reality. Too me, none of the above makes sense. I falter but mostly, I have lost my faith. As long as there is so much tragedy and horror and such that happens in this world...especially to small, innocent children, I cannot understand or praise an entity that allows this.

How can ANY creator watch a child suffer and die a horrible death and not intervene. I could almost understand it if an adult that has been a horrible, violent person their entire life ends up being punished and suffering...but kids...no. Does not compute. Karma also gets mentioned by some religions or new agers too. Since none of us knows for sure we reincarnate, that one doesn't feel right either.

Parents that are religious fanatics CAN and DO go too far. I am left handed and can remember my folks tying my left hand behind my back all the time because they believed left handed people were demonic. This went on for a long time until I started having such bad neurological and emotional problems it got noticed at school so they stopped doing that dealy.

Thanx for mentioning all that you did and for presenting an interesting and thought provoking OP/thread.