Traumatized by Christian Dogma & The Evangelical "Good News Club"

a reply to: Spiramirabilis
We are in agreement. We don't think kids should be taught using fear and guilt. However, nowhere in my posts did I suggest that it was okay to teach children about hell and damnation, I simply said that at five years old, I had no concept of such things. That's probably because I didn't attend those religious services where that kind of dogma was hauled out.
I don't think it is wrong to teach kids about the environment, I think it is wrong to scare kids by telling them they and all the people they love are going to die because of their choices when it comes to how they carry their groceries or which vehicle they choose to drive. To me, it is the same thing, scaring kids needlessly.
My grandmother was the first conservationist I ever knew. She taught me to respect and be a good steward of the earth. "Always leave it in better shape than you found it." was her motto, one I continue to attempt to practice today. Her reasons for respecting the earth was her belief that God had created the earth and gave it to humans to be caretakers or stewards. Mine are different at this point in my life, some might say a bit more selfish than to avoid sins against God. Simply put, I want to be able to eat food, drink water and breathe air that is uncontaminated because I believe it will allow me to live a healthy life.
However, like my grandmother and my mother before me, if you want to eat only chemical-laden food and feed it to your children, I have no right to jump down your throat about it. Same with Christianity. I'm not smart enough to tell anyone how to rear their offspring and I'm not arrogant enough to think that my way is the only way to think.
I was blessed to have a family that taught the children to think for themselves and to consider the end of the matter more than the beginning or middle. For instance, where does this "stop these people" end? Who sets the rules for the stoppage? How do you implement it? Jail for offenders---death? Laws that say you can't mention the words "hell and damnation" within hearing distance of a small child??? Do you see the absurdity?

And after thinking about it for a while...I should have been smart enough not to reply to this thread in the first place...seeing how some folks (not you specifically) are so fond of making wild and crazy assumptions when someone has the audacity to ask questions in an effort to provoke thought on the issues.
I repent my mistake and won't let it happen again. Thanks for your thoughtful words.

originally posted by: diggindirt
...Same with Christianity. I'm not smart enough to tell anyone how to rear their offspring and I'm not arrogant enough to think that my way is the only way to think.
...

Have appreciated all of your contributions to this thread, diggindirt!
And - while I, likewise, appreciated the full content of the post this is responding to...I just wanted to highlight the 'quoted' portion...as - for me - it focuses on the crux of the issue.

Is it wrong to feed children Cheetos, Candy, Bacon, Kraft Mac & Cheese, Ramen Noodles, GMO food products, etc....?
Does it harm them?
Is it wrong to buy them video games, toys, their own television sets, Androids-iPhones-iPads...to keep them...entertained (Oh - but it's for educational purposes!!!)...so parents can have some/more 'free time'?
Even my generation were told - "go outside and play"...through some of the hottest days of the year (humid coastal south Texas can get pretty hot)...just to get us out of Mom's &/or Dad's hair/s...
Sure - there may have been some benefit to the kids...but the motivation, in ALL HONESTY, was to give Mom & Dad some space.
My point?
As you have stated ---- we all emerge from childhood with baggage from (or - that was allowed/sanctioned by) our parents/guardians/caretakers...and, while I have experienced, firsthand, the paralyzing fear of going to Hell -- TONIGHT! through so much of my youth it almost blurs into an "every night, memory"...and I am fully aware that...that (and more) indoctrination thwarted and distorted me in many ways - - - I don't blame any of the perpetrators.
They were just trying to make their respective way/s through life...too.
They made choices in accordance with the way they believed... (Who convinced them?)
If one is not willing to accept responsibility for their life and beliefs...after childhood - that one is no better than those that may have injured them with idiocy...as a child.

I am not smart enough to KNOW that anyone-elses' beliefs...are wrong.
I can only reason and question.
So - when someone-else says that They KNOW...I wait to see what it is that they really know...and measure to see how much of it is assumption, belief &/or...the same kind of idiocy that I both endured and propagated (well into adulthood).
While I would have an experientially-motivated right to be incensed and disgusted and militantly EnRaged at the particular subject of the OP ... Just as you, I am not smart enough to presume to KNOW...much less...tell...others...how to raise their children.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Like I said, God could have killed all the sinners with pin point precision without any collateral damage. It actually makes sense to do it that way so the believers are vindicated in their faith. By destroying everything indiscriminately then there is no way to tell. You can rationalize all you want about the events, but the fact is that God destroyed two whole cities not sparing a soul and we are to believe that even the CHILDREN were beyond saving. I call BS.

But who are humans to question the will of God. Everything He does is for a reason, even if humans with their limited mind cannot comprehend.

a reply to: Nochzwei

Yet in your scenario God had made yet another blunder by creating man with limited minds. That is one screwed up deity.

a reply to: diggindirt

I have read all of your posts and replies to the thread, and to be honest, you and I are in agreement about "how to raise our kids" - because we agree on the same values.

Perhaps I failed to directly answer your question in a reply to you specifically:

My question was: "What is the difference between scaring kids about going to hell and the present day tactic of the Education Industry of scaring them about "ruining the planet" by driving cars and living in "too big" houses?" If you don't wish to address my question, that's okay. I thought you were interested in causing less pain and guilt in kids.

The difference is that children of tender years believe what their parents and teachers tell them. Just as your parents taught you to "do unto others", you taught YOUR kids. There are ample examples in this thread and all over the internet of what happens when sensitive kids are "taught about going to hell", and as adults they now can reflect on what that did to them.

Your parents were taught by THEIR parents, and you are very fortunate indeed that yours were conscientious enough to NOT indoctrinate you into a fearful view of things. So, you see, they were smart enough, and you were smart enough, and I venture to say I am smart enough (because I happened to choose child development and how families work, and education of children for my career). I'm not KNOWLEDGEABLE enough to be an archaeologist, but it is one of the things I am very interested in. That, and anthropology. So, I continue to follow the scientific and professional studies and research, because that's what I learned. Were your professors 'smart' enough to teach you about archaeology so that you could become a good one? YES. Were your parents 'smart' enough to teach you about things that uplifted and made you feel safe? YES. Are you smart enough to have raised children into adults who are NOT damaged by being taught hell-fire and brimstone? YES.

So, I would venture to say that you are 'smart enough' to suggest to others ways to parent that are effective and show good results, positive outcomes.

As for the Environment, well - that is an entirely different thing. We DO need to be stewards of the Earth - just as you were taught. Should they be 'scaring' kids with "we're all doing to die from this"? I don't know. But I taught my kids to respect the Earth, to not litter or be wasteful. Because that's what I believe.

The FACTS are that we, as a specie, ARE causing damage to our environment, and if it goes unchecked, there will be "hell to pay".

Seeing that we are in agreement on the principles in question, that leaves only your complaint that either I'm not "smart enough" or that I'm "arrogant enough" to share my knowledge with other parents. As I've stated throughout - evidence shows that there are best-practice ways of parenting, and any person who becomes a parent would do well to LEARN how to do so toward the best outcomes.

It's hardly nit-picking to share one's knowledge, especially when it comes to raising other human beings. As for 'where does it stop' and 'what is the penalty' - well, I'm not doing anything but sharing what I know with other people.

Babies don't come with instruction manuals. The Earth is our home. Science has learned how to steward her, and that knowledge is important to share. Educators and social scientists have learned how to raise kids into functioning adults with a minimum of "baggage". You did it, I did it, your parents did it, and their parents did it. That is how we learn.

Hope that rebuts your allegations that I am stepping out of bounds.
Good day, and thanks for your posts.

a reply to: diggindirt

Another couple of thoughts, on "where does it stop?"

It is not all fine and dandy if people beat their kids - if a child's arms are broken because he took a cookie, people will have something to say about it. I don't suppose you object to that structure; people are told: "Don't break your child's arms for taking a cookie. Don't burn them with cigarettes, or cut them with knives, or shake infants who cry a lot, because this causes their brains to bounce around in their skulls, and the results can be quite devastating."

Shaken Baby Syndrome is real. It can cause retardation and other developmental problems. Just because you don't "see" the results of psychological brutality doesn't make it any less real. That is the difference. We learn from adults - that's why we HAVE parents, teachers, coaches, mentors, care-givers, etc. Children need protection and help to grow up. It's very simple - when you need to learn how to do something, you go about seeking the information. Give people the information, and they have a starting point. We don't allow people to keep their kids illiterate; we don't allow them to break the bones and bloody the flesh of children. We don't allow them to starve or leave their kids alone. Those are already established 'rules' in our society.

Providing every new parent with a 'manual' of best practices is an option. Before leaving the maternity ward, send in a social worker or educator to spend some time with the new parents. GIVE THEM INFORMATION. Causing psychological and emotional damage can be LARGELY avoided, if only people have the information. Or, if it's a home birth - have the midwife coach the new parents on child-rearing. Or send out a manual of best practices with the child's birth certificate and social security card.

Just get the information out there. That's all I'm trying to do - it was my chosen career, and I'm trying to share what I've learned.

originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Like I said, God could have killed all the sinners with pin point precision without any collateral damage. It actually makes sense to do it that way so the believers are vindicated in their faith. By destroying everything indiscriminately then there is no way to tell. You can rationalize all you want about the events, but the fact is that God destroyed two whole cities not sparing a soul and we are to believe that even the CHILDREN were beyond saving. I call BS.

But who are humans to question the will of God. Everything He does is for a reason, even if humans with their limited mind cannot comprehend.

I am me and humans are humans. The only people who think they cannot question God are the ones who fear God and his punishments. I'd rather question God and have him own up to his misdeeds as well as explain himself when he does things that are downright awful. Otherwise he doesn't deserve my worship.

If God created us, he created us with the ability to question him. So I'm going to use that thing called "free will" and do just that. If he doesn't want to answer then He can go F himself.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

He probably feels the same way about you. He may be tired of talking about it and just saying f-you to.

a reply to: Logarock

That's fine. He hasn't done anything for me and refuses to answer my pleas to prove himself, so I don't need him.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

But Buzzy, few really are willing to accept your idea that what goes on in church for the very large part has anything to do with the spiritual equivalence of breaking kids arms. And personally I cant stand someone that tries to tear down and smear using worse case scenarios. You sound as though you would love to see storm troopers breaking down churches under the banner of "helping children". Its not hard for some of us to see past all the smoke blown on this tread to see whats really cooking here.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

That's fine. He hasn't done anything for me and refuses to answer my pleas to prove himself, so I don't need him.

He doesn't really like to do that even though he does it every day.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

That's fine. He hasn't done anything for me and refuses to answer my pleas to prove himself, so I don't need him.

He doesn't really like to do that even though he does it every day.

No he doesn't. If he did, then there would be no non-believers. There would only be people who accept him and people who don't accept him. Nothing in between.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Very few if any will ever say that they know God is real but don't accept Him.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Very few if any will ever say that they know God is real but don't accept Him.

Very few? Why do you say that? There are people on this planet that don't trust anyone. If god revealed himself to everyone simultaneously so that there would be no doubt to his existence, there will be a large portion of the population that doesn't accept him as the one true god. At the end of the day, we didn't witness god creating existence so all we'd have was god's word that he did it. So it all boils down to trust. Knowledge of existence doesn't necessitate trust though.

originally posted by: diggindirt
I simply asked how is it different (and perfectly okay) to scare a small child into tears with dire predictions about "death to all" with environmental issues? Is that not torture also?

And your question has been answered several times. Scaring a small child to tears with dire predictions about "death to all" with environmental issues is NOT OK and no one here has said that it is. Teaching children about consequences to their actions is a parent's duty, IMO, but using hyperbole in either case is NOT OK.

a reply to: Logarock

But Buzzy, few really are willing to accept your idea that what goes on in church for the very large part has anything to do with the spiritual equivalence of breaking kids arms.

But Logarock, I haven't said "that what goes on in church for the very large part" is the equivalent of breaking arms. It's only the one style that I'm addressing, that breaks kids' spirits.
The style that scares the crap out of kids, leaves them crying and terrified at night. It happens.

I don't see anyone DENYING that it happens. So your point is moot. Does it happen everywhere every day? No, and I never said it does. Does it happen? Yes, it happens. Is it "okay" just because there is no 'physical damage'? In my opinion, no.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It seems the only way people can disagree with your thread is by putting words in your mouth, thoughts in your head and arguing with them... It's actually a very good indication that what you've proposed is the truth. Because no one can argue with it without making up stuff.

You clearly said that it's the "damaging hell-fire dogma" that is hurting kids. Many of us have chimed in to say that we've been damaged by it and STILL are recovering.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

But your comments and evaluations elsewhere are very sweeping.

And it was my experience that kids, teenagers, could listen to hell fire messages and then go out and party until they dropped.

a reply to: Logarock

And it was my experience that kids, teenagers, could listen to hell fire messages and then go out and party until they dropped.

Teenagers are an entirely separate phenomenon. LOL!

I didn't mention teens at all - but since you brought it up, that is THEIR JOB as adolescents - to explore who they are; to buck against authority; to figure out what sort of person they are becoming; with whom they want to surround themselves. Hell-fire messages meant to stop teens from being teens are useless, just like the "abstinence only" messages - because human teenagers' hormones are raging and unstoppable.

And anyway, if a youth believes they are going to hell anyway, what's to stop them from living it up while they can??
(That is a rhetorical question. I don't really want to get into teen development in this thread. It's off-topic.)

When I was a child…lol almost six decades ago…I remember walking with my mother, holding her hand, as we maneuvered down city sidewalks. I remember seeing often a Jesus-looking man dressed in white robes, shouting the words on the sign he was holding. “Repent of your sins or suffer Hell!” He seemed a little crazy, shouting and all in his get up, scary looking with a scary message, but people just walked around him. Adults chose to ignore him, and children were dragged out of his way.

My sister and I attended church, but, fortunately at the time, my church was changing their thinking from exclusion and hell and damnation (where the devil would prick your tongue with a hot poker for every lie you told, as my Irish grandmother would tell us, and I frightfully envisioned my dad’s bbq fire starter or 4th of July sparkler burning my tongue) to recognizing the Family of Man and the effects of wrongdoing now and not later. I didn’t grow up with a beaten psyche.

Around 1980, the world seemed to revert back to religious groups sorting out people by those being “saved” and those being damned to hell forever for not believing/following whatever it was each religion said needed to be believed/followed. Fast forward to nowadays and replace that crazy sidewalk man with a young person approaching children in a public park or apartment complex and giving them the same message. At least back then, I had an adult to guide me around that belief.

Back then my sister and I could go to a public park (or public school ground after school) without someone scaring us children to be saved, so we wouldn‘t burn in hell, and, hey, wouldn‘t we want our little friends and family members to also be saved from hell, too, so tell them to show up and have them donate money to spread this “Good News”. I guess the good people of Portland haven’t fared so well with their children being proselytized in public places.

Attorney Eric Cernyar participated in Good News Club as a child. He now monitors Child Evangelism Fellowship activities and documents club practices such as deceptive marketing, authoritarian conditioning, diminishing nonbelievers, shame indoctrination, fear indoctrination, attacks on science education, and the cult technique of “mind control.”

The Good News Club curriculum is filled with over 5,000 references to sin and thousands more to obedience, punishment, and hell. It stresses Old Testament narratives of a retributive God who must punish sin, warns children that they will suffer an eternity in hell if they refuse to believe, and stresses complete obedience as the supreme value. Good News Club tells children as young as preschoolers that they have “dark” and “sinful” hearts, were born that way, and “deserve to die” and “go to hell.”
.....
“Before we were all Loyal Heights parents together," he said. "Now we’re divided into groups and labels: you’re a Christian, you’re the wrong kind of Christian, you’re a Jew, you’re an atheist.”

source

Adults have choices if they want to hear “Good News” messages about burning in hell without their friends or family members present, or the opposite, scaring and scarring them with visions of spending the rest of their life in heaven without their friends or family members (especially mom or dad!!). Children are too often captive audiences to this macabre message and come away with distorted thinking and ideas. Evangelizing to children like this group does in public places is wrong.

Come to think of it, some people’s dividing the world into “us” and “them” seems to be the cause of so much we are afflicted with nowadays. So long as we teach such a divisive message, we will be divided, let alone produce adults who need to be healed mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically from this message and the messengers.