Traumatized by Christian Dogma & The Evangelical "Good News Club"

a reply to: shrevegal

Hey there, gal.

Thank you for your contribution!!
I'm so sorry that you were forced to endure that maltreatment until the problems got noticed at school.
But, I'm also glad that someone intervened.

Oooooohhhh the trauma. You poor people. How in the world did you overcome it all. How horrific it all sounds.
How utterly tragic it is to grow up in the social confines of the west.
Makes one hope to be a Christian kid growing up in gaza instead of some place so oppressed like the USA. We torture children here. Scar them for life we do.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I guess what I believe in the most is this...that we are ALL energy. We cannot be destroyed and will continue to exist, even after our physical body dies. We may continue on in another dimension or our "energy" may simply float amongst the stars, traverse the Universe. I think that would be beautiful...flying out into the cosmos, seeing stars and planets as we pass by...maybe even mingling with their energy on some level. Yep, fly me to the stars, let me see what spring is like on Jupiter and Mars....or words to that effect.

As for hell and the fear that some religions teach...I think even kids would/could relate to the picture I have presented and feel more positive relevant to it all.. It may not be any more true than any of the rest of it but it "feels" right somehow. ALL is energy. I guess I am looking at it from a physics sorta thing.

The create our own reality belief stumps me...a baby that gets put into a microwave or some such...so young and not even hardly self aware yet...how could it create that for itself. How could a loving entity allow it. How can one relate to religion when entering a church and the first thing one sees is a statue of a man nailed to a cross, bleeding, thorns on his head, being tortured. Just can't relate or understand. ALL religions seem to have bassackwards slants on things that they represent...not meaning to pick on just one...they ALL make one wonder.

a reply to: manna2 No, it makes one not want to be a Christian at all. That children have to suffer the ravages of war only reinforces the point that all religions seem to be crap...no matter where the kid is, if it has to suffer like that. Children, the world over are suffering in many ways...that's the point...none of it makes any sense. Who is to say that a child anywhere suffering is different somehow. When a child suffers, the entire world should care, governments should care, people with humanity and compassion should care...yet it all keeps happening. Children suffering from war, kids being pimped out and abused on city streets, no matter where or how they are suffering, it is all the same. It should never "hurt" to be a child.

Kids in Iraq and Gaza are suffering. that is the point...where is help for them? A child in ANY country that gets hurt, tortured, raped, whatever....that kind of suffering is world wide, that's the problem. No salvation, no intervention. A child is the USA that gets murdered is suffering the same way as any child anywhere. Suffering is suffering. If there is a hell, I would say the most comparable thing to such is war itself and what it does to the innocents. Children suffer in war and some suffer in other ways. Being in the "West" doesn't lessen the degree of suffering it just makes it different. A child being murdered anywhere isn't thinking about the how or why of it...they are going to end up just as dead and that is the point. Where is the help for any of them?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Cruithneach
[SNIP]

Ah, yes, an entirely different way to abuse children, but I had that one, too. And my father used the bible to justify the welts on my legs that the kids in school stared at and whispered about. That doesn't discount the religious indoctrination, fear, guilt and shame that I brought into my adulthood, thanks to my strict religious upbringing and thanks to my father...

Morality, however archaic and rigid it may be, has a purpose in healthy societies.

No kidding! Religion does not have the market on morals nor is it necessary for good morals! I'm an atheist with VERY high morals.

You can cry about it all you want, but your father made you into a stronger, more resilient man today. You should be thanking him for it.

Wow. I mean wow. Really, wow. And all because you had to go to Sunday School in your best dress.

did you really try to equate gaza to something horrific? Like what buzzy had to go through. All the torment from phospherous bombs raining down, melting through walls and flesh. And singing in sunday school about noah and the animals and stuffa reply to: shrevegal

a reply to: manna2

did you really try to equate gaza to something horrific?

Oh, manna.

Gaza IS horrific. It doesn't 'equate' to something horrific....
it IS HORRIFIC.

A few points I think are relevant to me, and perhaps others can relate.

I wasn't really raised a Christian per-say. I self identified as one for a good portion of my early life, like most white Americans I suspect because we celebrated Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter and I was read "bible stories" when I was younger. But in my home we never attended church, never prayed except for those family holiday dinners when grace was said. I was also raised by a single mother, and my father was never present in my life. He left shortly before I was born. My grandparents I believe were Methodist. But again, I don't think anyone in our family was praticiing.

The bible was around, but no one read it really. I believed in God, and to a lesser extent believed in Jesus. I had no reason not to. It was "just was just the way it was".

My early 20's were filled with plenty of mistakes, one that wrecked my life and delayed things for awhile. But that was followed up with my first visit to a church. That first visit, it felt like the pastor was talking directly to me. Something resonated. And it struck a cord in my heart.

I'll try to summarize as best I can a journey of spiritual up's and downs and abuse.

I attended an evangelical church, that taught "prosperity gospel". Maybe you've heard of it. It's the Americanized version of the gospel. Consumerist Jesus.

It felt great, and I cleaned up some areas of my life, but at my core I just became a hypocrite. Now to be fair, everyone is really a hypocrite. We all judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions. And often, my intentions did not line up with my actions.

The teachings leads to a lot of confusion. I don't want to get into the theological end just this moment, but a turning point and my first moment of "lost faith" and confusion happened when it came out that our Pastor was having an Affair.

As a man who grew up without a father, I had placed this man kind of in that role. And I was literally broken up over the revelation. But more so because the reality sunk in that his behavior was similar to my own.

For a about a year I just stopped trusting christians. But then I came around and discovered the "reformation" movement. Or reformed theology, which is growing in popularity as of late. It was a breath of fresh air, because rather than just randomly picking scripts to support their ideas, like most evangelicals, modern Calvinist stand on church history (to a certain degreed).

This lead me to a new church, and to a path of learning and deciding for myself what I truly believe.

The first time around, I came into the church and a belief in Christ on my own based entirely on emotional reasoning. The music at church made me feel good. The message was inspiring and left me feeling good. I felt good about being a part of the church community. In a a whole, the church was a feel good drug.

And I began to realize this. It's why the deeper core issues in my life didn't change. I was able to clean up the outside, but the inside was still a real mess.

When I got into reformed theology, and took a deeper interest in my faith I started down a path that would eventually lead out of the faith, although at the time I didn't realize it.

Coming from the hurt of the past church experience, and moving to a new state, I joined another small church with my wife that adhere'd to and preached in a reformed theology.

The sense of order and rightenous of it all, I think it was just something else I needed. But the pastor of this church was even more of a spritual abuser. I'd rather not post all the details, but my wife was attacked viscously and verbally. I myself was made a scape goat for a Pastor who claimed to be a vessel for God. All things which I did not see at first, but eventually became apparent. If my other church was a Walmart Church, well I had literally just joined a cult.

We left, bitter, and hurt spiritually. I'm a firm believer in self education. And I continued to explore my faith, and really dig into what the early church believed. And more importantly, how the church came about, and what the jews believed before Jesus showed up.

This is where it got really disheartening for me. When you really dig into the early church, the bible, etc, you get heart broken for modern christians. Especially those who expound that the bible is the absolute word of God. It's pretty much the entire source of confusion and all the division in christimdom.

The interesting thing is, the Orthodox church while supporting the bible does not have the finite view that almost all the prosedant church holds over the bible being the "inspired" word of God. And the Orthodox church has been the same for the last 2000 years. They pratice the luthogical, which is just a verbal retelling.

It's all very interesting, but anyhow, at it's core it all comes down to a story passed on over and over and over. There are dozens of copies of scripture, but again, they're not proof that the stories in them is true. We can be sure of the qaulity of scripture by comparing them, but that doesn't mean what scripture is telling us is true either.

When you go even further back in church history, to prehistory and then study the jews, who don't look anything like modern jews btw, it gets even more bizzare.

It lead me to my current state of spiritual numbness.

I've come to believe that the whole of christianity is just a long long sad joke of telephone.

And whats worse is I still believe there is something more. I just don't know if it's God? I'm worried that there isn't a God.

Whats worse, is I grew up watching and reading science fiction. So I'm kind of bent in both ways. My mind is open to the idea of aliens uplifting us. It's open to the ideas of other spritual philiosphies. But it's also logical in believing that science might be ulitmately right. That this is all there is and when I blink out of existence. Poof.

Is my brain so afraid of death that it needs to come up with some belief system to compensant?

I don't know.

But we recently had a daugther, and now I learned that my wife is pregant again. They'll be close in age, but it has me thinking more.

When I was a christian, I was very sure in how I would raise my children. And very sure how I was to lead my life.

Now I am completely unsure of everything.

All I am sure of is the beauty of life. The fact that I am hear and that life is a gift.

But I'm still very hurt about God not existing and Christianity being a myth.

It's worse still becuase I studied it so much, that I understand it so well, I often still find myself defending Christian friends from the attacks of those who misqoute scripture or don't understand the christian view point, even though I myself dont' believe it.

I really don't know how to heal this part of my heart. But my spirtual life feels like it's on life support.

Anyone? Help?

originally posted by: Cruithneach

originally posted by: manna2
Wow. I mean wow. Really, wow. And all because you had to go to Sunday School in your best dress.

did you really try to equate gaza to something horrific? Like what buzzy had to go through. All the torment from phospherous bombs raining down, melting through walls and flesh. And singing in sunday school about noah and the animals and stuffa reply to: shrevegal

Exactly. Bunch of fookin hypocrites.

It's funny, back in high school there were a lot of these rich girls that had these hipster boyfriends, but they always came hankering back for the weathered rabble like me. I had at least 7 of these girls after my d*ck, and I was the kid without a car smoking cigarettes with black kids on the side of the road during lunch.

A soft life breeds soft men. A kid needs to get told "no" sometimes. It's why the girlfriends of those impotent emasculated hipster types always come looking for guys like me in the end. I can't complain.

15% of males (alpha's) get 66% of all the sex in college while 40% males get nothing. This while being outnumbered 2:1. Imagine how that has translated into society. Alot of kids today being raised by other men than their father. Its what happens when moral lessons in youth are ignored and cast aside.

In todays world with the breakdown of the biblical family that is one of the trends I have seen. All the feminists daughters are sluts it seems. And the alphas get all the sluts and single mothers. The betas are raising their children somewhere along the line.

Its like that is what the feminist movement has become in the likes of madonna and miley cyrus championing feminism. Its about getting to sleep with whoever and whenever they want. Which btw, is the 15% alphas, which is fine by them.
Anyway, I know I veered off topic a bit. Good thing I tied it into morals and sunday school,

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: manna2

did you really try to equate gaza to something horrific?

Oh, manna.

Gaza IS horrific. It doesn't 'equate' to something horrific....
it IS HORRIFIC.

I know buzzy, I know. Its that wry sense of humor of mine in my sarcasm goes unnoticed. Did you really think I was comparing what you went through as a child compared to a 5 year old Christian girl underneath a cloud of phoshorous raining through the walls and her families flesh?

a reply to: alphaTango

Yes, I think we can help.
I'm sorry for your suffering, alphaTango.

It's very confusing when one tries to decipher truth from tradition.
As a caring parent, you will find the way.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I wouldn't give up my experience in church for anything.

I found much more hellish experiences outside the church than in it.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I don't believe it is exclusive.

originally posted by: manna2

originally posted by: Cruithneach

originally posted by: manna2
Wow. I mean wow. Really, wow. And all because you had to go to Sunday School in your best dress.

did you really try to equate gaza to something horrific? Like what buzzy had to go through. All the torment from phospherous bombs raining down, melting through walls and flesh. And singing in sunday school about noah and the animals and stuffa reply to: shrevegal

Exactly. Bunch of fookin hypocrites.

It's funny, back in high school there were a lot of these rich girls that had these hipster boyfriends, but they always came hankering back for the weathered rabble like me. I had at least 7 of these girls after my d*ck, and I was the kid without a car smoking cigarettes with black kids on the side of the road during lunch.

A soft life breeds soft men. A kid needs to get told "no" sometimes. It's why the girlfriends of those impotent emasculated hipster types always come looking for guys like me in the end. I can't complain.

15% of males (alpha's) get 66% of all the sex in college while 40% males get nothing. This while being outnumbered 2:1. Imagine how that has translated into society. Alot of kids today being raised by other men than their father. Its what happens when moral lessons in youth are ignored and cast aside.

In todays world with the breakdown of the biblical family that is one of the trends I have seen. All the feminists daughters are sluts it seems. And the alphas get all the sluts and single mothers. The betas are raising their children somewhere along the line.

Its like that is what the feminist movement has become in the likes of madonna and miley cyrus championing feminism. Its about getting to sleep with whoever and whenever they want. Which btw, is the 15% alphas, which is fine by them.
Anyway, I know I veered off topic a bit. Good thing I tied it into morals and sunday school,

It's a good thing we were raised right, because no woman finds a submissive man attractive. That's exactly what modern parenting does, it creates submissive lads and overly-assertive girls.

Sometimes wish we would get Islamized or something. Modern Christianity has clearly failed to do what it was meant to, it's disjointed, there's no cohesion among the different sects, and it's been defanged and lost it's potency. Anything is better than this.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I don't believe it is exclusive.

Sure it is. There are rules to get in. If someone fails the entry requirements he or she either goes to limbo, purgatory, or hell depending on denomination and just how badly they failed to get in. That is exclusiveness. You never get a second chance either, you get 70 years to get it right and if you don't then you are locked out. That's how it was always told to me. Can't think of too many denominations that have other ways of handling the afterlife. Isn't that the whole point to the "eternal hellfire" shtick?

ETA: Also keep in mind, depending on the denomination. Heck depending on the PERSON, the rules to get into heaven could be VASTLY different. In other words, the rules to get into the ultimate paradise during this one lifetime are COMPLETELY ambiguous, and if you fail this ambiguous test, you don't get in. Ever.

a reply to: alphaTango

I think the biggest thing the modern Christian church is lacking is the personal walk with God. It has all been made proprietary. Meaning, it has essentially been turned into a business, complete with "brand loyalty."

Its not a matter of someone else helping you, necessarily, it should be more about encouraging you to help yourself and showing how we do that in our individual lives.

It starts to veer off topic a bit, and despite our differences, I do respect buzzy.. So, I will just say that instead of focusing on the institution of the church, perhaps look to your own experiences for the deeper answers. Others can show you the way they found, but we all have our own individual questions and answers. Sharing these with others can be beautiful, but we also live in a society that thrives on conversion and contrarianism.

a reply to: alphaTango
So - in the end (to this point, anyway) you found that they were all just men...too.
No better & probably no worse than you...except that they told you (or, perhaps, it was inferred) that they had been somehow 'chosen' by God to tell you what God said/says...
If I got that wrong, please correct me.
We seem to need something to believe in...'cause then, it's not just us...against the world.
If we believe something that others believe as well -- now we're on a team (family, clan, community, nationality, etc...)...
Surely...so many couldn't believe the same thing...and be...wrong ... ... ?

What do you teach your children? How do you raise them...without giving them something 'bigger' to believe in?
Good question.
Perhaps 'honesty' might work.
Maybe just tell them - "Yeah - a lot of people believe in such&such and so&so...but I don't." You can even tell them the stories, as you know them... Who knows what they will do with it, as adults? IMO - it should be up to them. And, as long as you loved them...whatever they choose to do or believe as adults, will have no effect on their love/regard for you.

I questioned for years, after de-converting...if I was leaving something out. "Am I overlooking some painfully obvious fact/truth...that has resulted in arriving at the wrong conclusion?"
I don't think I'll ever know the answer to that question - but it has grown less bothersome as the years have passed, and the evidence seems to continue to pile on the side of 'my conclusion'.

Good luck in your journeys.