Israel resumes military campaign against Gaza

a reply to: _Del_ Rather than getting sucked into your little questions that you think should be relevant. I do not. They are loaded. You know it and I know it. if you don't then here's a reality adjustment for you:

Palestinian "rights"? Empirical evidence suggests that the Palestinians do not have those rights at present time. "Rights" are usually won, fought for, either on the battlefield or in courts. The court version is only successful if the "court" has the means of enforcement. Back to square one.

"Rights" that are left undefended are, sooner or later, are lost. To wit, the U.S. as we speak.

At the moment, it looks like Israel will be the one that decides Palestine's rights or fate. Voice your objections to that reality all you want. We have no enforcement means to alter that fact.

I honestly do not believe the Israelis intend or desire extermination. I do believe, however, if pushed sufficiently, that could change....

That is what I believe. Ideal? Certainly not! But there it is...

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: _Del_ Rather than getting sucked into your little questions that you think should be relevant. I do not. They are loaded. You know it and I know it. if you don't then here's a reality adjustment for you:

Palestinian "rights"? Empirical evidence suggests that the Palestinians do not have those rights at present time. "Rights" are usually won, fought for, either on the battlefield or in courts. The court version is only successful if the "court" has the means of enforcement. Back to square one.

Accusations and more accusations.. the underline up there did you got those "Empirical evidence" from research or it's only "_Del_ opinion? Please provide evidence to support that.

About those questions that you never answered.. never mind! Because you really can't answer them and that Sir, says a lot about the kind of people who support israeli massacre really are.

a reply to: voyger2 Your responses are glib. As are your questions. Provide "evidence" that Palestinian rights do exist. In fact, it's you who ignores my points to your "rights" issue.

Survival trumps "rights". Simple really. You don't see the connection. The Israelis surely do. Until you finally get that, you will be spinning your wheels. Until the direct threat posed by Hamas is removed, all outside debate and opinions will go for naught.

Israel's survival is more threatened by it's neighbors overall. not Gaza, per say. Palestine's survival is seriously threatened by Hamas' actions and Israel's response.

Both groups care nothing about the other's "rights". At least for now. Deal with it.

I'm tired. Goodnight.

originally posted by: pennydrops

When are you people going to stop lying to yourselves and accept there are 2 sides to this conflict. If you care about Palestinians, why are you guys not criticizing Hamas as much as you criticize Israel. They are just as responsible.



Both sides are bad. Come on guys, this conflict will never end while the international community is acting like this.




Hamas have stated they have new rockets and plan on attacking the airport, they are also attacking a nuclear facility, how can anyone support either side??????

To put it frankly I don't. I support the Palestinian's peoples right to live. How can anyone call this a conflict? Like it's a battle both sides have a chance of winning. Clearly numbers don't lie. Regardless of how many rockets Hamas fires at Israel the fact remains that Israel has only seen a totls of about 53 deaths, most of which have been part of IDF. The majority of Palestinian deaths are civilian, not Hamas. Is Hamas blame free? Certainly not but that doesn't justify what Israel is doing.

First of all, Hamas was in many ways created by Israel. Doesn't anyone find that suspicious in the least? Like how the U.S. helped fund Al Queda and # like that? How did the U.S. end up using Al Queda? We used them as an excuse to go to war. So what the # do you think Israel is doing? Why do you think Hamas is so ineffective at attacking Israel? Are they really just that bad at what they do? It's simple. Hamas isn't supposed to hurt Israel, he's only supposed to give Israel an excuse to attack Palastine so Israel can cull the civilian population and take over the area for their "Holy Land". It's all part of their zionist agenda if you ask me and we support it because we're part of it too.

Even if all of what I just said has no sources to cite. (I arrived at those conclusions with the evidence presented to me) Do you really think those attacks justify bombings that obviously don't kill the "intended" target? Israel just ends up killing civilians instead of eliminating the problem. Perhaps Israel should send in troops instead of bombing the # out of everything. I'd rather let a corrupt human make a judgment call then an emotionless machine bent on destroying anything around it.

a reply to: voyger2

There is not a government in Gaza interested in securing rights for Palestinians. Until that changes, they will continue to be victims of their circumstances.


Both Fatah and Hamas accused of war crimes (when you can't get your mitts on an Israeli, your neighbor is the next best thing):
www.theguardian.com...

Current government's view of rights:
www.hrw.org...

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: daaskapital
I'm curious why you didn't title this thread "Hamas resumes attacks after ceasefire ends" as that would be the more accurate description of events. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that Israel broke the ceasefire first, right?

Hamas was not responsible for attacks, so that would be bit misleading, don't ya think?

that Hamas has not commented on the rocket fire, but "Islamic Jihad, another militant faction that has taken part in the fighting and is represented at the talks in Cairo, claimed responsibility for firing them."

www.npr.org...

You guys are too attached to Hamas, you forgot that they have more then one extremist group there... and question is who, if anyone can control them all.

originally posted by: _Del_
a reply to: voyger2

There is not a government in Gaza interested in securing rights for Palestinians. Until that changes, they will continue to be victims of their circumstances.


Both Fatah and Hamas accused of war crimes (when you can't get your mitts on an Israeli, your neighbor is the next best thing):
www.theguardian.com...

Current government's view of rights:
www.hrw.org...

You are aware that Israel arrests even kids as regular ops, even during peace time, witch is really just irony... there is no peace for them last 60-some years....

en.wikipedia.org...

www.haaretz.com...< br />
There is another news about people being abused on regular routine, including 'singing of police hymn'...


Just wonder, when you say Palestinian government, how do you think they can develop and maintain power if they don't even have land/country?

a reply to: SuperFrog

If the "legitimate" government of the territory cannot control them, why would Israel have any reason to believe a ceasefire will be honoured?

originally posted by: _Del_
a reply to: SuperFrog

If the "legitimate" government of the territory cannot control them, why would Israel have any reason to believe a ceasefire will be honoured?

That is good question....

How to negotiate case fire if you don't allow them even to form government or have country? So there should be some recognition first that needs to happen, and then someone should be responsible on both sides to maintain stable conditions.

But someone here posted video where Netanyahu asks why give 100% of occupied territory when you can keep 98%?! How do you explain that?

And another question is, why building of new settlements on occupied territory has never stopped? I really like to hear your response on those 2 issues.

This happened just few months before so called war - or we can call it destruction...

mondoweiss.net...

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: _Del_
a reply to: SuperFrog

If the "legitimate" government of the territory cannot control them, why would Israel have any reason to believe a ceasefire will be honoured?

That is good question....

How to negotiate case fire if you don't allow them even to form government or have country? So there should be some recognition first that needs to happen, and then someone should be responsible on both sides to maintain stable conditions.

Israel has not allowed Palestinian territories to form governments? That's a new one.

But someone here posted video where Netanyahu asks why give 100% of occupied territory when you can keep 98%?! How do you explain that?

And another question is, why building of new settlements on occupied territory has never stopped? I really like to hear your response on those 2 issues.

Why wouldn't he say that? He thinks Israel's security is bound up in the issue. And it certainly is. I'm not sure he wants a two-state solution. I KNOW that Hamas does not want one. What next?

I'm against expanding settlements in the occupied territories. Even from a purely pragmatic viewpoint it creates more problems than it solves, in my opinion.

You are aware that Israel arrests even kids as regular ops, even during peace time, witch is really just irony...

That, believe it or not, happens in most countries when kids throw rocks at police and soldiers. Many families prefer detention to lethal force, even.

www.haaretz.com...< br />
There is another news about people being abused on regular routine, including 'singing of police hymn'...

The offending officers were tried and convicted as most civilized countries are wont to do, as opposed to held up as revolutionary heroes to the cause by the government.

I think i should respond to all those who are attempting to label me biased, simply due to the error of my thread's headline.

Other threads were created, before this one, detailing the breaking of the ceasefire by militant groups in Gaza, and the further rocket attacks on Israel afterwards.

This thread describes the Israeli retaliation.

The headline may have been in error, but it reflects the core point of the article of which it is based. That is, the fact that Israel has resumed its military campaign against Gaza. Indeed, i even described that the actions of Israel were retaliatory in nature, in my own OP.

So, to those accusing me of bias, please don't.

the whole situation seems hopeless and doomed to perhaps a pause, then rinse and repeat, over and over.

originally posted by: g146541
a reply to: daaskapital
This has turned into a PR nightmare for israel, they could have simply sat back and let the fact that the "missiles" used against them are wholly ineffective, and the dome shooting down a fair amount of them protect them.
All the while they could have really demonized hamas and taken the moral high ground.
But some animals are bloodthirsty and I truly believe nitwityahoo has gone mad.
So...innocents die and weapons contracts get fulfilled...
The rogue state of israel could have turned this into an actual victim case for themselves all the while taking none to almost no casualties.

That's like not arresting thieves because you have an alarm system that protects you every time they try to break in .. and letting them continue to try without repercussion when that system costs you $1 million every time they try.

Genius idea.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: rockn82

I usually don't break a post into parts but in an attempt to deal with your "points" I will.

Your whole post shows a complete non-understanding/partisan view.

Actually, my post was quite simply informative. I took no sides; just relayed CORRECT information.

Do you think a nuclear plant is designed to withstand ANY size warhead? ANY hit would require shutdown for safety checks, at the least.

Multiple small warhead hits?

Yes. Especially the nuclear reactors in Israel. Even the ones in the US are designed for the event as most were constructed in the cold war. It's apparent you did not watch the video so you could keep your misinformation and continue to spread it.
Here is an article which covers the construction of nuclear power plants:
READ THIS and learn something

Israel should wait until someone supplies Hamas with guided munitions or, perhaps, Scuds? We already know how many Marines were killed with just one scud....

The military maxim is "HONOR THE THREAT" . It is their job and responsibility.

I cede my point is a worst case scenario.

Israel doesn't have the wiggle room, size-wise, population wise, in any wise to take that chance.

Their actions are correct. They have my support. Remove this threat. THEN negotiate. Simple really.

All of this is conjecture. Made up. To attempt to reinforce your view. I have twice now given you the information to showing you that you need to re-evaluate your postion. The people who star you are just as mis-informed.

originally posted by: _Del_
Israel has not allowed Palestinian territories to form governments? That's a new one.

Government, just missing country.... funny...

a reply to: rockn82

From your source ....

As for construction, reactors were built to withstand attacks from Mother Nature like earthquakes.

Ask Japan how well that worked out for them. You are right, nothing bad could ever happen from them attacking Israel's power plant.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: _Del_
Israel has not allowed Palestinian territories to form governments? That's a new one.

Government, just missing country.... funny...

Security and functioning government, then country... It's not funny; it's tragic

a reply to: OccamsRazor04 Occam's razor. Absolutely perfect "handle'. brilliant!

a reply to: nwtrucker

Danke!

a reply to: rockn82

Conjecture? Made up? Logic! Reasoning.

By the way, if you were interested in facts. Add in the "M-302" rocket. 375 pound warhead with a maximum range of 125 miles.

"A-302" rocket. 90 KM range 170 KG warhead.

That same 302 landed near a city 90 KM from it's launch point in Lebanon.

You, sir, are disingenuous.

There are a wide variation in Hamas rocket capabilities. Many are small and hand held. there are far less of the bigger varieties. these two larger versions were intercepted in transit at sea....

Conjecture? Israeli response to that nuclear plant attack completely aligns with these rocket capabilities which are available in a one minute Google on the subject.

You and your posts have been relegated to the trash bin, as far as I'm concerned.. have a nice life..