It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Rebel 'prime minister' of Ukraine's Donetsk says quits post

page: 1
4
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 08:16 PM
link   
Rebel 'prime minister' of Ukraine's Donetsk says quits post


Donetsk (Ukraine) (AFP) - The prime minister of Ukraine's self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic announced Thursday that he was resigning his position.

Russian citizen Alexander Borodai said he was stepping down in favour of a local field commander, Alexander Zakharchenko, after finishing his work as a "start-upper".

Borodai denied he was fleeing the unrecognised republic as a brutal government offensive closed in around the million-strong city.

"I think that the worst is over. Yes, we are in a very difficult military situation but every day this situation changes for the better and our armed forces grow stronger," he told journalists at a press conference in the rebel headquarters.

The unshaven Muscovite said he wanted to hand the post on to someone originally from the region but pledged to continue work as a deputy prime minister.

Borodai, a fervent Russian nationalist and former journalist, emerged at the head of the rebels in May as one of a handful of key Russian leaders directing the insurgency.


another piece of the puzzle - Calls into question the Russian position on Crimea.

Borodai admitted that he had helped steer through the Kremlin's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula in March but always remained a junior partner to the rebel's top military leader Igor Strelkov, a self-confessed former Russian intelligence officer whose real name is Girkin.


As has been stated time and again, the Crimea situation was nothing more than Russia doing a stealth invasion. The people who called the elections were not even Ukraine / Crimean citizens.

Click link for remainder of article...


.......and so it begins. When leadership starts fleeing its a good indicator of which direction the wind is blowing. This would also possibly suggest that Russia is not going to send in the 20k troops they have on the border. If Russia was going to step in, I doubt we would see this guy resigning.

One other thing to point out.. Those who have been arguing the position that Kiev was violating the rights of the individuals in the South / East Ukraine by not allowing them votes on certain issues I ask this -

This guy who just resigned appointed his successor, with no elections held.

Can you defend that action and explain why its ok?

Lets see if the other Russian Rebel leaders in Ukraine leave as well.


Thoughts?
edit on 7-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 08:31 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

Wonder if he's going to assist as Deputy PM from a safer location across the border? Maybe he'll just keep a small aircraft handy for when things (probably) go sideways.

I'm doubting Russia is going to directly involve their troops in this fight on Ukraine soil so it doesn't look good for the Donetsk People's Republic. Doubtful that's the same response they'll give if Ukraine tries to take back Crimea though.

a brutal government offensive closed in around the million-strong city.

My main concern here is how many innocent civilians are going to be slaughtered in this campaign. Always seems like those who didn't do anything wrong pay the biggest price.



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 08:54 PM
link   
Yeah I would not want to be around when the locals come to string him up for getting them in the mess either. I do not think the Russians would be to happy with him so he may not be able to go there. He could just defect and rat the Russian out. More likley he is going to have an accident before he goes anywhere.



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 09:17 PM
link   
They'll just booby trap his escape chopper like they did to the Oklahoma city bombers that placed the charges INSIDE the walls.....



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 10:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: Xcathdra

This guy who just resigned appointed his successor, with no elections held.

Can you defend that action and explain why its ok?

Lets see if the other Russian Rebel leaders in Ukraine leave as well.


Thoughts?


In a war zone? Are you mad?
What idealostic model of "democracy" are you going by here?



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 10:55 PM
link   
a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

It has been the position of Russia, the Rebels and numerous members of this site that people in the East / South part of Ukraine were being oppressed by Kiev.

Under Kiev those regions could elect their officials. When the Russians / Russian rebels have taken over, the populations in the affected areas no longer got the ability to vote for their government.

I would like to find out the reason for his departure, although if I had to guess its because of how the rebellion is loosing.



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 10:56 PM
link   

originally posted by: stirling
They'll just booby trap his escape chopper like they did to the Oklahoma city bombers that placed the charges INSIDE the walls.....


Please take the off topic comment to another thread so we dont pull this one off topic.



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 11:12 PM
link   
Ja reply to: Xcathdra

Well that's not my impression. My impression is they never supported the uprising in Kiev from the beginning, and after it fell, they no longer wanted anything to do with Kiev and took control of government buildings there...

Its been less than a year, with shelling, a downed civilian airliner, kidnappings bloody gun battles & more.. i dont think the prime minister quitting is ground for fresh elections.... In the UK we had Gorden Brown unelected as our PM for two years after Tony Blair quit..
We were at war, but we weren't under siege as Donietsck is...
edit on 7-8-2014 by funkadeliaaaa because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-8-2014 by funkadeliaaaa because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 11:20 PM
link   
a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

You are sidestepping the point / issue I raised.

The people (not all btw) in those areas of Ukraine -South / East / Crimea - supposedly had no representation in the Kiev government. Under the Kiev government the local and regional leaders were elected by the people. Since the Russian invasion those very areas dont even allow elections to choose who is going to lead them.

This is not the will of the people, its the will of the Rebels / Russia, who have now stripped those areas of any democratic process.
ironic really.
edit on 7-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2014 @ 11:36 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra

No, you're sidestepping the reality. They wanted to become a fully autonomous republic. They had no support for the west backed Kiev uprising. Having a leader answerable to those same eu backed puppet rebels in Kiev, and potentially an unelected EU body in Brussels was clearly was unnacetable for these people.
edit on 7-8-2014 by funkadeliaaaa because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2014 @ 12:04 AM
link   

originally posted by: funkadeliaaaa
a reply to: Xcathdra

No, you're sidestepping the reality. They wanted to become a fully autonomous republic. They had no support for the west backed Kiev uprising. Having a leader answerable to those same eu backed puppet rebels in Kiev, and potentially an unelected EU body in Brussels was clearly was unnacetable for these people.


I used to believe they wanted to rebel against Kiev until Ukraine took back separatists held territory. People are coming forward telling them what the separatists did pointing out mass graves and explaining how they were terrorized. Im sure there were some i have no doubt but many more were just scared to say anything. Since if you talked of you showed any support for Ukraine you disappeared they ruled by fear. They didnt get the support they did in Crimea and thats why its failing and the separatists are now surrounded. After its over im sure will here the same stories of mass graves arrests and harassment.



posted on Aug, 8 2014 @ 01:53 AM
link   
I think the mass graves have already started popping up....itll be like the Bosnian war aftermath....
The populace seems to have just kept a low profile if they favoured Ukraine......But there were a lot of civillians bringing them food not so long ago.....id say that the people will swing with the wind to survive right now.......A world supervised vote would be a help.....



posted on Aug, 8 2014 @ 02:08 AM
link   

originally posted by: Bassago

Wonder if he's going to assist as Deputy PM from a safer location across the border? Maybe he'll just keep a small aircraft handy for when things (probably) go sideways.

Possibly / most likely. It seems completely out of character based on everything. There is also the possibility of Russian leadership of the rebel units being a reason as well. I have seem some articles talking about cracks in the command structure of the rebels. Kind of along the same lines as Putin is starting to have with his advisors. I guess it might be related to the losses the rebels have been having in that area. Does the PM exercise control over the rebel forces or is it a different setup?





originally posted by: Bassago
I'm doubting Russia is going to directly involve their troops in this fight on Ukraine soil so it doesn't look good for the Donetsk People's Republic. Doubtful that's the same response they'll give if Ukraine tries to take back Crimea though.

a brutal government offensive closed in around the million-strong city.

My main concern here is how many innocent civilians are going to be slaughtered in this campaign. Always seems like those who didn't do anything wrong pay the biggest price.

To be honest I am not sure anymore. Just about everything Putin has done has pushed the situation closer to open hostilities with Russia (imo anyways). I am curious exactly how much pressure putin is under with regards to him trying to keep everyone happy all of the time in his political circles.

As for civilians its always a concern. I am still under the impression that the Ukraine MoD announces their general areas of activity so civilians can try to get out of the area. I have seen reports of civilians in the rebel areas who have since turned against them because of the mess its bringing.

Does being "ethnic Russian" automatically translate into supporting the rebels / wanting to join Russia? I ask because I see the comment a lot about ethnic Russian percentages in the areas we debate about. I don't think I have ever seen a follow up as to what percentage of those ethnic Russians who don't support the armed actions.

As an example if you take a poll of voters in the US asking them if they are for or against a law that bans flag burning, the answer to that question in terms of yes and no are actually irrelevant as the actual numbers needed are contained in the follow up question -

How important is a flag burning law to you?

You could have 80% of the people in the poll supporting a flag burning law, however of that 80% its entirely possible to have only 20% state the topic / law is very important to them where as others may feel jobs / economy etc are more important.

So while we have a very high "ethnic Russian" percentage in the South / East / Crimea, the follow up is how many of those individuals support the actions currently ongoing.
edit on 8-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2014 @ 02:17 AM
link   
a reply to: stirling

I have seen articles describing what is essentially a drumhead trial for basic offenses. Criminal violations and the drumhead are swift and severe, where death sentences are issued with no ability to challenge the charges and are carried out immediately. If the article is accurate and this is occurring I think the rebels may be bringing their own demise - not from the Ukraine Military but the citizens themselves.

I know there is a sense of nostalgia from some of the Russians who grew up during the cold war etc. Its entirely possible some of the ethnic Russians may have supported Russia because they forgot history. If the article is true it very well may have served as a reminder of what it was like under the USSR at the time.

Possibly it may be more palatable to live in Ukraine than go back to Russia and face the possibility of reliving the past.


The bolded area below is of extreme importance if verified -
Documents Show Rebel Justice In East Ukraine Was Bureaucratic, Swift, And Merciless


SLOVYANSK, Ukraine — The men with guns came for Alexei Pichko in mid-afternoon, before the usual evening barrage of shells flew over this decrepit suburb of dilapidated shacks and half-burnt houses. When his mother went to look for him at the rebel headquarters in the security services building, they told her he was under arrest, but alive and well.

One month later, the men who took him have fled their stronghold in this sleepy east Ukrainian town, unable to sustain the Ukrainian army’s barrage of mortar fire, and retreated to Donetsk, the provincial capital. The building where he was held captive is now half-destroyed, lined with mulch and detritus. The only evidence of what has happened to him is on files found lying on the floor, coated in a thick film of dust, signed and stamped by the separatists’ feared commander.

“By order of the military-field tribunal of the [Donetsk People’s Republic] militia on 17.06.2014,” it reads, “I hereby proclaim that Aleksey Borisovich Pichko, resident of the city of Slovyansk, is sentenced for looting to an exceptional measure of punishment — execution by firing squad — on the basis of the Decree of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR ‘on martial law’ from June 22nd, 1941.”

“The sentence has been carried out.”


The three-month struggle for Slovyansk — which became the stronghold of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic when armed men seized it in April — has made the once-nondescript town of 119,000 all but unrecognizable. Buildings are smashed across town. Half the population fled. Those without the means to do so turned on each other, deprived of electricity, running water, and contact with the outside world.

Detailed transcripts from Pichko’s case and two other tribunals, however, appear to show how the militia’s enigmatic commander, a former Russian intelligence officer known by the nom de guerre of Igor Strelkov, kept order in the city through summary wartime justice. Theft was prosecuted under a decree devised by Stalin at the start of World War II. Trials were held summarily under the jurisdiction of men known by nicknames like Nose, Gray-Hair, and Baloo. Punishments were carried out “ruthlessly and decisively.”


Click link for remainder of article.

Laws from the USSR? From the 1940's. The time when Stalin was in power.

Apparently trying to argue the cold war mentality verse the present is not accurate. Apparently some want to go back to the beginning where it all started with Stalin.




edit on 8-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2014 @ 02:26 AM
link   

originally posted by: stirling
But there were a lot of civillians bringing them food not so long ago.....id say that the people will swing with the wind to survive right now.......A world supervised vote would be a help.....


Part of me thinks the food deliveries were based on the human factor and not the military factor. Ukrainians are caring individuals and at times that caring can supercede a war.

The people in Crimea did the same for the Ukraine forces who were held up in their bases.



posted on Aug, 8 2014 @ 09:04 AM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra



Does being "ethnic Russian" automatically translate into supporting the rebels / wanting to join Russia? I ask because I see the comment a lot about ethnic Russian percentages in the areas we debate about. I don't think I have ever seen a follow up as to what percentage of those ethnic Russians who don't support the armed actions.


I've lived in a lot of different countries and from what I've seen is that people everywhere 1) have an affinity for their homeland and 2) that affinity is at least in part effected by whether their perception of their home land is positive or negative. As example Taiwan, while most people there are ethnic Chinese there was still a negative perception of the violence between Mao and Chang which has bearing on how they feel towards the mainland.

Ethnic Russian population areas I suspect are more sympathetic towards Russia than Kiev or the EU. That would most likely translate into them being sympathetic to the separatists fighters and in some percentage providing active support. I could only guess at a percentage breakdown. 80% sympathetic - 20% actively supportive?? That may be a little high on the supporters side but it's just a guess though.

Over all from what I've seen people everywhere seem to want the same thing, to be left alone from meddlesome governments and bureaucrats and to just be allowed to live their lives. The more they have of that the less they care who is running government or what political parties claim control.



posted on Aug, 14 2014 @ 07:44 PM
link   
a reply to: Xcathdra




I have seem some articles talking about cracks in the command structure of the rebels.


This may also be a big factor in his decision...



I also wonder if this is a decision from Russia to tie up any loose ends that could show some type of involvement by Russia with MH 17?



posted on Aug, 14 2014 @ 07:48 PM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Interesting that Russia has refused to accept the outcome of the elections in south and east Ukraine.

Good info on the other fronts as well. The lack of support of the younger generation will be the undoing of the pro Russian rebels.



posted on Aug, 14 2014 @ 07:54 PM
link   
a reply to: Bassago




Ethnic Russian population areas I suspect are more sympathetic towards Russia than Kiev or the EU. That would most likely translate into them being sympathetic to the separatists fighters and in some percentage providing active support.


That could be, but somewhere that support seems to have dwindled or they would have been able to keep hold of some of the territory they held.

Once they lose support they have no choice but to go where the support is. Also they seem to be having a hard time getting younger volunteers for the fight, so that may be a big factor why they have lost support in the areas they once held.

If the younger generation doesn't want to fight it makes others look at the situation a bit differently.



posted on Aug, 14 2014 @ 07:58 PM
link   
a reply to: MrSpad

Then, what do you think will they do when people who bombed them and killed so many innocent people aka Ukraine army enter into their area? I'm sure there will be flowers and songs...

But, oh wait, you probably don't know about those bombings, I do not know why when MSM keep reporting on them daily...wait a second, they don't. My mistake.
edit on 400k2014Thursdaypm014 by Nikola014 because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
4
<<   2 >>

log in

join