Call no man Father

Catholics:

Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
…8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.…

OK so everyone acknowledges Jesus said that.

Does this answer from the RC Church satisfy you?

www.catholic.com...

It does not satisfy me. It is quite obvious Jesus is referring to spiritual Fathers, and the answering party even acknowledges this before they proceed to ignore it and talk about forefathers, earthly fathers etc etc... This is obviously a change Jesus made.

Here is a Catholic explanation of the spiritual aspect:

A Change with the New Testament?

Some Fundamentalists argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men "father" in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.

First, as we’ve seen, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of "father" in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests "father") must be wrong, as we shall see.

Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher." Even "Mister" and "Mistress" ("Mrs.") are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics for saying "father." But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

As a Christian, when I teach the Gospel - I never claim it comes from me (all good things and all wisdom in me comes from God), or that talking to me is necessary to talk to God. Do Catholics claim this? Well, that line gets blurred, but they do claim that God will not forgive sins not confessed to a priest called "Father." Then there is the doctrine of "No Salvation Outside the Church."

Further, I don't think God set up a Church where you are supposed to confess your sins to a man you barely know when God specifically tells us not to trust men. Over and over. As we know, and I hate to bring this up I really do but I feel it is necessary, some parents made a big mistake sending their kids into the confessional.

If I were to raise my kids Catholic, I would have to make the same mistake as them - trusting a man around my kids in a one on one setting to hear all of my child's sins. Even if the worst didn't happen....just the premise sounds really bad. But that is a topic (Apostolic Succession) that I will start a different thread on.

So, Catholics, how do you reconcile this?

I want the RC Church to be right. It is a large and charitable organization of Christians with an interesting history. I do want an organization like that to be right. I just can't reconcile this, and a few other things, with what God taught us. But I will make threads on the other things later.

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

A lot of the RCC's actions and even its existence doesn't IDEALLY satisfy me. But, it exists and many blessings have come from its existence.

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon
I think the real issue is the pride involved in wanting to be called (spiritual) Father and revered as someone greater (cf 1 Corinthians ch3).
I'm not convinced that the quoted explanation is addressing that issue.

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

What I am more curious about is why Catholics worship & pray to saints when God clearly says that he is the only one to be worshiped & prayed to.

There should be a section that goes with the bible that says "Ok so I know in the OT it said this but it's now null & void"

Does it really matter anyway, there are tons of stuff in the bible that people don't adhere to, mixed cloth clothing for example

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: knoledgeispower
What I am more curious about is why Catholics worship & pray to saints when God clearly says that he is the only one to be worshiped & prayed to.

Catholics don't 'worship saints'. Catholics ask saints to pray to God for them. It's no different than you asking your neighbor to pray to God for you, except that the Saint is already in Heaven with God.

Catholic Catechism - Communion of Saints
Catholic Answers - Saints

The answer to your question is in those two links. If you decide you disagree with the Catholic scripture interpretation, that's fine. You can have your interpretation and they can have theirs. Live and let live. But just know that Catholics do not 'worship saints'.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

That is interesting. I always wondered about why Catholics do "Hail Mary" prayers on the rosary instead of to God or if you lose something ask Saint Anthony of Padu instead of God. ((When we were kids we would pray to Saint Anthony when we lost something but my Mom had his name wrong, Antoine-de-padu (all as one word) & it always worked))

To me it seemed like major violation of what God wanted by praying & worshiping other Saints. ((Which it still seems Saints are worshiped in a way, through holidays and what not. ))

I find it interesting that a book from an all powerful God can need so much interpretation and explanation...

a reply to: knoledgeispower

I always wondered about why Catholics do "Hail Mary" prayers on the rosary instead of to God

There is no "instead of." We pray to God, and we also, as FlyersFan noted, make prayers of intercession to the saints and Mary and ask them to pray for us. With the net result being more prayers to God on our behalf, not less.

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

Does this answer from the RC Church satisfy you?

Did you really read that? One of the things that it makes abundantly clear is that Paul, Peter and John all referred to their followers as their children. Unless you think that they considered themselves their children's mother, one must conclude that the Apostles considered themselves to be spiritual fathers to their flock and Jesus' "call no man father" means something other than banning the word.

a reply to: adjensen

Children in the sense of them being under their care spiritually. But, none of their followers called them "Father" in the Bible.

The question then becomes, what does it mean?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think that this poster is correct with his interpretation.

It is interesting to me that Scribes and Pharisees are exactly who Jesus was addressing wrt to this issue.

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

Children in the sense of them being under their care spiritually. But, none of their followers called them "Father" in the Bible.

So you think that they thought of themselves as their followers' mothers?

Near as I can tell, there are only two types of relationships that someone can claim if they refer to someone as their child. "My children", John says. "My son Mark," Peter says. "My dear children," Paul says. Not "You children", "Someone's son Mark" or "You dear children".

Frankly, this is one of those nonsense arguments that serves no purpose other than to promote divisiveness within the Christian community.

ETA: And… in the time it took me to write that post, he got banned, lol. Guess we won't know his opinion on whether Paul asked his followers to call him "Mom".

a reply to: WeAllDieSoon

The Catholic church is the epitome of apostate Christianity. When there was a scripture that contradicted their man made traditions, they changed it. For example, the Catholic Ten Commandments are different than the rest of Christianity. The reason is because they changed them by deleting the 2nd commandment, which states in Exodus 20:4-6...

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

With all of the statues of Mary and the Saints, they had to delete this commandment, and the fact that they pray and worship Mary and the Saints dictates that they change it as well. They deleted the 2nd and split the 10th into two commandments to compensate. The Pope is also called the "Vicar of Christ" Vicar (think vicarious or vicariously) implies that the Pope is the representative of Jesus Christ here on Earth, and that He speaks for and has the same authority as Christ, and that the church is the distributor of His grace, and in order to be saved one must not only believe on Christ as the New Testament states over and over again, but they must also adhere to the church sacraments. This is nothing more than an apostate, man made, works based, blasphemous false gospel. Because the Pope claims to have the authority of Christ, he just puts out some official church doctrine that changes scripture and that is how they can call their priests "father". Catholics are not Christians, because they follow a false gospel. They are no different than Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. All of them believe in a works based plan of salvation, which at it's core means that the work Jesus did on the cross was not good enough to save. Jesus said "It is finished", which means that there is nothing left to do, because He did it all. I believe Him, Catholics don't.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

The reason is because they changed them by deleting the 2nd commandment, which states in Exodus 20:4-6…

Oops. That passage remains in the Catholic Bible…

You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20 4-6, New American Bible)

That quote comes direct from the Vatican.

Try again.

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: knoledgeispower

I always wondered about why Catholics do "Hail Mary" prayers on the rosary instead of to God

There is no "instead of." We pray to God, and we also, as FlyersFan noted, make prayers of intercession to the saints and Mary and ask them to pray for us. With the net result being more prayers to God on our behalf, not less.

In the case of having to do "Hail Mary" prayers on the rosary that is to her instead of to God. I still don't see why it is needed, instead of just praying to God. It it in the hopes that more people know, the more likely your prayers will be heard? ((I know it was talked about it those links but I guess I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around it but I do want to understand because it has been something I've always wondered.))

It makes me wonder why RC pray to saints and why it got dropped by sub religions like Christians & Presbyterians.

these should clear things up to a degree

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:4
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
The Catholic church is the epitome of apostate Christianity. When there was a scripture that contradicted their man made traditions, they changed it.

The reason the Catholics changed the Ten Commandments is so that they could practice Idolatry.

WHY would they possibly want to do something that completely contradicts scripture?

The "spirit of Baal" is a powerful and well-organized attempt by Satan to distort Christianity into a religion "in the name of Christianity" but which actually puts people into bondage to him (Satan). It is the driving force behind what the Bible calls "Babylon". It describes many aspects of denominational Christian­ity today from which our Lord Christ Jesus is now working to deliver His Body. It is a very powerful evil spiritual force, ever trying to distort Christianity into a religion which subtly serves Satan not Christ. It works toward that end by deceiving leaders in the Body of Christ who are serving by the power of their self rather than by Christ indwelling.

Satan's goal is to totally control all areas of human affairs by means of religious control of political and economic leaders. Throughout the Bible, "Babylon" is the term used to refer to his entire "system" to this end, including religious, economic, polit­ical and military aspects of his government. "Baal" is the Bibli­cal term used to refer to the religious part of "Babylon". It works in parallel with other evil spiritual forces which work chaos in our economic and political affairs.

Baal as Satan's religious thrust is very ancient, as we said above. It has been Satan's strategy since the time of ancient Babylon to captivate mankind into a false religious system under his control. Satan comes in as the subtle deceiver. As Paul points out in Ephesians chapt­er 2, we are then actually under his "slave-ownership", by default if not by actual choice on our part.

The Deceit Of Baal: Deception Through Religion

Why did the Roman Catholic Church change the Ten Commandments written in the Bible? They took away the second commandment, “You shall not make for yourself an idol.” God prohibited idolatry through the commandment, “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below, and you shall not bow down to them or worship them.” However, the Catholic Church set up cross images, and made and worshiped Mary and Saints statues. They have a doctrine that contradicts the commandment, “You shall not make idols.” In the eyes of the Catholic Church, the 2nd commandment was a prickly one. After all, they took away the 2nd commandment.

They also changed the 4th commandment from “Keep the Sabbath day” to “Keep the Lord’s Day.” If the Sabbath were the same day with Sunday which is called the “Lord’s Day,” they would not have changed it to “Keep the Lord’s Day.” The Roman Catholic Church introduced the Sunday service into the church. They had no choice but to change the Ten Commandments in order to stick to the day of sun-worship.

The Roman Catholic Church changed the Ten Commandments

What if a church which claims to believe in God changed the laws of God? The Roman Catholic Church changed the laws of God; even the Ten Commandments. Why did they change the Ten Commandments written in the Bible? It’s because they wanted to hide their non-biblical acts: idolatry. God strictly forbade the act of idolatry through the second commandment: “Yfoou shall not make for yourself an idol.” But the Roman Catholic Church has introduced and worshiped idols within the Church. Also, the Roman Church abolished the feasts of God such as the Passover and the Sabbath day. Instead, they introduced Sunday and Christmas which originated from pagan customs to worship sun-god.

Why did the Roman Catholic Church change the Ten Commandments?

The Catholic religion's "traditional way" of enumerating the ten commandments takes away the second commandment (against making images unto ourselves) and makes the 10th commandment into two commandments. If you follow them all the way down from the second commandment you'll see the Catholic religion is always one ahead of the King James. Finally at the tenth commandment they break it into two and make it the 9th and 10th commandments. What deception! What deceit! What guile! I tell no lies here--just get out the Bible and compare. They contradict their own unauthorized Bible by taking away the second commandment! They reject the commandment of God so that they can keep their own tradition. www.jesus-is-lord.com...

How can they delete a commandment and still have ten? Some man might ask me, "If the Catholic religion deletes a commandment how do they still come up with ten commandments?

Let's compare the Catholic ten commandments to the real ten commandments from the good ol' King James Bible, that pillar of doctrinal truth (God loves the truth, you know). The following list on the Catholic side is taken from a textbook used in a Catholic school. It is titled, "Growing in Christian Morality" by Julia Ahlers, Barbara Allaire, and Carl Koch, page 40. It has both nihil obstat and imprimatur which are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of Catholic doctrinal error. The authors of this book know these commandments are deceitful. Look at what they say:

...These are the Ten Commandments, from Exodus, chapter 20, in the traditional way they are enumerated by Catholics They did NOT use what THEIR NRSV said, they "enumerated" them the traditional way enumerated by Catholics. You see the reason the Catholic religion killed people with Bibles is 'cause their deception is just too easy to see in light of God's word. Just a little more mumbo-jumbo gumbo for your consideration... www.jesus-is-savior.com...

a reply to: Murgatroid

Read my post up there -- the Ten Commandments are still in the Catholic Bible, unchanged.

ETA: Funny, I was curious to see what the Jewish Ten Commandments were, and lo and behold! Same as the Catholic Ten, not the Protestant Ten.

1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

5) Honor thy father and thy mother.

6) Thou shalt not murder.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8) Thou shalt not steal.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor.

10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor. (Source)

Was Jesus Jewish? Or Protestant?