September 18th, Scotlands date with destiny...

a reply to: ScepticScot

Still a totally hypothetical argument and asking us to prove a negative. There is no way of knowing how an independent Scotland would have spent it's cash, so you making the assumption that Scotland would be "debt free" is simply not credible.

There is also the fact that the UK Government has invested a lot of money to get those fields developed - something an independent Scotland "over the past 30 years" may not have been able to do.

a reply to: EvillerBob
Stu's figures are correct they are just nit the whole story. If you looked at England's figures or almost any countries they show something similar.
What Stu is trying to suggest is that Scotland is subsidised as part of the UK. What he does not mention is that the 'subsidy' is borrowed on our behalf. If Scotland takes a per capita share of debt which I agree it should. Effectively Scotland has subsidised the rest I the UK.
You can also argue about what is included in the expenditure share but that is probably getting petty.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: EvillerBob
Stu's figures are correct they are just nit the whole story. If you looked at England's figures or almost any countries they show something similar.
What Stu is trying to suggest is that Scotland is subsidised as part of the UK. What he does not mention is that the 'subsidy' is borrowed on our behalf. If Scotland takes a per capita share of debt which I agree it should. Effectively Scotland has subsidised the rest I the UK.
You can also argue about what is included in the expenditure share but that is probably getting petty.

This is the bit which is confusing me.

Does Scotland spend that money? If so, how does that make it anything other than expenditure?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Actually, no, I wasn't trying to paint a picture of Scotland being "subsidised", but rather dispelling the myth that Scotland would be the land of gold-plated haggis's some would like us to believe and it's England draining the cash.

a reply to: EvillerBob
In terms of what is Scottish expenditure you can argue over what is included. For example a share of the London Olympics is included that actually hurt the Scottish economy. However the commonwealth games was purely Scottish expenditure.
I am sure however there other ways that Scotland benefits so think is a pointless debate.
Overall the question isn't did Scotland spend more per head than England, it did. But did Scotland need to borrow to meet that spending.

a reply to: stumason

The truth is those in power are draining the cash from both England and Scotland. Divide and conquer, let's split them up and see what's what.

a reply to: stumason
Again I feel compelled to mention that it rare indeed to see a pro yes contributer mention haggis, William Wallace, Bannockburn, land of milk and honey or sodalist paradise.
The myths all seem to cone from one side..

a reply to: ScepticScot

The second time humour does not appear to have translated well.....

it was obviously a tongue in cheek remark..

As for the rest of your post, Mr Salmond does like to bang the drum on what an awesome place Scotland would be without "Westminster" - which is code for England - so how do you think we're going to react to constantly being told we're the font of all evil?

What are we really debating here?
Wildly conflicting stat's and forecasts from people who have an agenda either way, economically, politically, or otherwise?

...or if the people in Scotland want to continue working with the rest of the UK as part of a team which has more history together than most of the rest of the world?
It is a simple and democratic choice, and personally in my romanticised thoughts I want to continue working with Scotland in a team which has more history than the EU.

a reply to: stumason
Got the joke just heard it or similar before.
If course salmond gives the best possible picture, he is a politician. Nit sure why you think Westminster is code for England. Most of England gets shafted by Westminster as well. Ask freeborn for details.
Also the SNP has English msps.
Also also the yes campaign is not just bloody salmond.

a reply to: midicon

The truth is those in power are draining the cash from both England and Scotland.

They most certainly are - and they will continue to do so regardless of the result of the referendum.

Divide and conquer, let's split them up and see what's what.

So isn't a 'Yes' vote playing into their hands?

That's been my point all along - we have a better chance of effecting real and positive change by remaining united, strength in numbers and all that.

originally posted by: stumason
...so how do you think we're going to react to constantly being told we're the font of all evil?

Well, to be fair, I am the font of a little bit of evil. Not all of it, and certainly not enough for a whole country.

a reply to: Freeborn

So isn't a 'Yes' vote playing into their hands?

That's been my point all along - we have a better chance of effecting real and positive change by remaining united, strength in numbers and all that.

My divide and conquer comment was really about the UK. We both know each others views and who the real enemy is. The fear of a break up by Westminster should tell you something. The only people that can change the current set up are the English and there is no real call for change other than superficially.

Independence is real change...not just for the sake of it...but for the chance to change direction.

A break up of the union may be just what is needed to galvanise the English into some sort of radical reform. I wonder if it is possible though as Westminster is really the English parliament.

We have to split things up and sort out our own affairs...I think this will be good for the English people as well.

Something has to give Freeborn...we have to take a radical step...and there is no other on the horizon.

a reply to: stumason

As for the rest of your post, Mr Salmond does like to bang the drum on what an awesome place Scotland would be without "Westminster" - which is code for England - so how do you think we're going to react to constantly being told we're the font of all evil?

Westminster isn't code for England...but no matter how you dress it up it is a font of evil. No one is saying England's this or England's that, just pointing and refering to the elephant in the room. Perhaps independence would be less popular if the English said...patience brothers we are going to deal with that lot.

Instead there is mis-direction and it becomes don't slag Westminster you will hurt our feelings. Get real...only a lunatic would want to be ruled by Westminster.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: grainofsand
Considering Football teams in England get 30x more ££££ for being relegated than we get for winning the league up here you wonder why the football is Garbage.

Scottish Teams need to be in Europe to make a few quid. Champions League Group stages generates around £15-20 Million.

Englands relegated teams get a £30 million windfall. if it wasn't for Sky's ££££££££ and Foreign Players, English football would be Garbage as well. The last World Cup proved that.

That's a ridiculous strawman argument, I'm not sure why you raise it. The money is based on supply and demand - more people want to watch the EPL so it attracts more money.... It's not about English players any more than the SPL is ALL about Scottish players - take a look at the first 11 for Celtic - how many of those were born locally?

Sheesh, do you want some salt and vinegar for that chip on your shoulder? For all your protestations you really paint yourself as someone that just doesn't like English people. That's fine, if it helps I'm English born but a bit of a mongrel and I honestly hope Scotland votes for whatever is best for Scotland. The fact that anyone living in Scotland, whether they are actually Scottish or not is a different matter, but hey, you let the fat fish make the rules.

a reply to: uncommitted
This was a light hearted conversation with Grainsofsand as you can clearly see by the wink at the end. i was merely pointing out facts about one leagues income compared to another...get off yer high horse.


BTW...For all the money pumped into English football the current International football team are crapolla.


....Wink added so ye dont get yer kecks in a twist or god forbid take a heart attack.

a reply to: uncommitted
Apologies or i'll burst ye...

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: uncommitted
This was a light hearted conversation with Grainsofsand as you can clearly see by the wink at the end. i was merely pointing out facts about one leagues income compared to another...get off yer high horse.


BTW...For all the money pumped into English football the current International football team are crapolla.

....Wink added so ye dont get yer kecks in a twist or god forbid take a heart attack.

Not sure where I got on the high horse, you are reading too much into things, but then that seems to be the trend in this thread doesn't it.

Scotland will actually get to a world cup at some point, probably, maybe, if Salmond demands a vote on it.

originally posted by: stumason, Mr Salmond does like to bang the drum on what an awesome place Scotland would be without "Westminster" - which is code for England - so how do you think we're going to react to constantly being told we're the font of all evil?

What rot! Westminster is code for WESTMINSTER!!!

2nd...

a reply to: uncommitted

Scotland will actually get to a world cup at some point

We will sail there on a sea of oil

In golden ships with saltire sails