ATS does it again, jumps to conclusions and breaks a leg doing so.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
How about talking about the OP, Hamas confessed to ordering the kidnappings ...didn't think so.

60 minutes alone with somebody in a room with all the accouterments and I'll have 30 people confessing to killing JFK.

originally posted by: VoidHawk
Lets not forget that one side is being squeezed into an ever shrinking piece of land! I think they have a right to be a little bit annoyed! maybe even the right to fight for their lives?



"They throw rockets"

Maybe they'd stop if they could have some of their land back!

Maybe the land would still be theirs if they did not start terrorist attacks and wars. Don't play the look who started this game, you will lose.

originally posted by: rockn82

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
How about talking about the OP, Hamas confessed to ordering the kidnappings ...didn't think so.

60 minutes alone with somebody in a room with all the accouterments and I'll have 30 people confessing to killing JFK.

Israel has arrested hundreds of people since the kidnappings in relation to them, your logic fails because he is the only one to have confessed.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

Look, saying that racism informs some part of the reasoning behind certain of the country's actions (I'm talking mostly about people in charge here) does not mean that it's now open season on killing Jews and destroying the state of Israel. All it is is a recognition that we must be honest about BOTH sides in this conflict if we are ever going to get anywhere. Everyone is so keen not to give an inch that they end up losing all credibility and the other side is de facto pushed to extremes to get the other side to even budge. Of course I understand that Hamas (not every Palestinian) is much more racist. But we are getting absolutely nowhere with this tit for tat fighting, the "my great great great grandfather hallucinated that he was given this land", or "my book tells me to chop your head off" tack.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

You claim (paraphrased) that Israel is condemned all over the world, and is accused of war crimes.

Then you claim (again, paraphrased) that Israel is continuing the behavior that got it condemned around the world, in order to prevent itself from being condemned all over the world.

What did you mean to say?

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Not Authorized

Dear Not Authorized,

I'd go a long, long way to have a reasonable discussion. I think the most basic problem is "What do we talk about?" We've got lots of choices:

How to get from here to peace,
How to protect the most fundamental interests of each side,
Whether we should put more blame on one side than another,
and several more.

My preference would be to discuss the first option. It is too easy, as we have seen, to start fights over who was first or who did the worst thing.

Would you be kind enough to explain about Holder and Racial Animus? I didn't think Holder was very authoritative on the subject of race, but I'm probably missing your point.

With respect,
Charles1952

How about we just keep it simple and follow international law. Give humanitarian aid where it is due. Move the UN into areas where civilians are being targeted by violent entities. Give back any land that was taken by military force.

How about we just do our jobs and stop allowing ourselves to be infected with israel's snake tongue half truths. Since when does the Israeli media decide what is right or wrong?

a reply to: charles1952

Those are all good ideas.

When I mean ground rules, I mean respect and civility. Have you looked up the definition of a racial animus so we are discussing the same thing? You have to do that first, before forming a valid opinion.

I am in a multicultural marriage, so I may have a different perspective.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

That's a really nifty map you got there. If you mouse over it, does it tell you at each loss of land why it was lost or is that too complicated for your "let's start simple" approach?

a reply to: TinfoilTP

Arrested 100's of people? That just made me laugh.

"Arrest them they look Palestinian and could be the killer!"
"Get 'em Scoob"
"Oray Raggy!"
Cut to shot of Scooby Doo doors chase scene.

If you take one step before your own leap of logic you could say that now Israel needs a scapegoat/strawman because of increased international pressure and diminishing support. Pretty easy to pick one of the 100's of people and pin it on them. I wonder what kind of "trial" he'll get.

Is this the reason? I don't know. I was simply offering up plausible explanations. However if I were to look at some actual evidence, we know the kidnapper(s) spoke Hebrew and had Israeli license plates. There are many other conclusions one could make that would also be plausible. However, we never get the whole story. Just what they want us to hear. That is where our critical thinking comes into effect.

You seem to argue with emotion and less critical thinking. We are free to our own opinions as humans but slaughtering thousands with the excuse of collateral damage is never right. Ever. No matter who's doing it or why. If you want to continue a conversation without insults or degradation I'm all for it, but I've read many of your posts for the last few years, so I'll not continue this further with you.

Good day

I remember when I used to LEARN things on ATS. Then I watched it become something different. Now it is a much different place then what it was before. I blame the members for letting it happen. We have seen allot of traitors as well here when it comes to the truth.

I don't give a crap anymore about ats I tried to let the so called powers that be that they were losing intellect here. So now this is what you end up seeing on the boards, after the first post from the OP it turns into a circus, hell anytime I want to tune into the freak show nowadays I come to ats, and lurk the boards, not much at all I must say, I get better news now on Google itself.. Not to mention I just don't have the time to debate with nonintellectuals here anymore and trying to communicate on a two dimensional platform is a waste of my time, especially with people who refuse to think for themselves. Speaking of which, ahem to get on topic, its comedy in itself to make a post about politics between two tribes that have been fighting each other since the beginning of time....

Yet this is not the FIRST or the LAST thread I will see on ats. Perhaps for most of the people who post here this is there only platform I suppose to take one of our AMERICAN rights, the right to free speech.. Back to my beer. Carry on kids.

a reply to: Not Authorized

Dear Not Authorized,

I've been looking, but I've only found two possibilities so far. Racial Animus is either just a polite way of saying Racism, or it is a way of limiting racism. Animus may just be anger toward, and not a feeling of superiority.

Honestly, I didn't think this was a racial question, but it's pretty clear that I'm not understanding this completely.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Dear MALBOSIA,

How about we just do our jobs and stop allowing ourselves to be infected with israel's snake tongue half truths.

You're a natural at diplomacy. A respectful discussion with you would be a snap.

NEXT!!!!

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Can you discuss this rationally and civilly? That you may have acted or supported a racist people without realizing it?

I stand for those who are innocents caught in the middle. Those that think both sides are the same.

So Israel can admit that Hamas was not behind the incident, and then be contradicted by one guy that nobody has ever heard of, and that makes it true? I'm just asking. Just trying to establish what you think the standards for evidence are. Even if Hamas was behind the incident this does not justify Israel's actions. Hamas' actions are deplorable as well, but apparently some find it difficult to make the distinction between people living in Gaza and Hamas. There is a difference.

a reply to: Not Authorized

Dear Not Authorized,

You're presenting a lot of questions there, let's see if I can answer them.

Can you discuss this rationally and civilly?

I have a fair reputation for that, but we'll never know for sure until we try it.

That you may have acted or supported a racist people without realizing it?

That's possible. Allow me to ask in return, will we be talking about who is to blame? Are we assuming that a racist government should be hurt in war because they're racist? Are Arabs a race? Are Israelis?

I stand for those who are innocents caught in the middle. Those that think both sides are the same.

I'm not clear on what that means, but we can work it out as we go along. ( But I have to be completely honest, I don't understand how both sides can be considered the same.)

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Not Authorized

That's possible. Allow me to ask in return, will we be talking about who is to blame? Are we assuming that a racist government should be hurt in war because they're racist? Are Arabs a race? Are Israelis?

Yes, it is possible. As far as who is to blame? We can come up with many scenarios. I can't say. Was it culture, spirit of the age, misunderstandings, unfortunate occurrences, fraud, etc. That is an impossible question to answer in an age of universal deceit. Instead, I choose to recognize it for what it is worth. I myself, can make a course correction in my path. My answer to the race question, is below.

I'm not clear on what that means, but we can work it out as we go along. ( But I have to be completely honest, I don't understand how both sides can be considered the same.)

This is what I support: www.theage.com.au...

Now, I mean this as respectfully as possible. Can you honestly answer this question to yourself. Are you racist? If you are not, how do you not understand both sides ARE the same fundamentally? They are people. You have moved them into an inferior set of beings in your mentality, unworthy of attention.

Do you think people should die for their skin tone? I do not. It's insanity.

It's the extremists that are the problem. Not the innocent people.

White=Black=Brown=Yellow=Red=Equal

What would you do if the shoe was on the other foot?

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: sheepslayer247

Dear sheepslayer247,

Fount of knowledge and wisdom in this desert. Peace be upon you, strength to your arm, and may you have many children to brighten your old age. (No, I have no idea why I wrote that. Sometimes things just flow.)

I'd like to suggest a line of approach for such a discussion as I desire. First, make perfectly symmetrical assumptions. Israel and Palestine both get to exist. Israel and Palestine stop sending death or attacks to the other. Israel and Hamas both have squeaky clean elections as soon as possible.

With that granted (if it is) we figure out how to put those things into place.

I know this is sketchy, but there hasn't been much demand on my brain for logical thought in this subject area. We can flesh it out, hear opinions, and maybe get somewhere.

With respect,
Charles1952

I know why you wrote that. Much respect to you as well....as you have illustrated the direction this discussion needs to move towards.

Let's set aside our preconceived notions and bias' to work towards a solution that respects the lives of those involved and stops this senselessness once and for all.

a reply to: hoth12

And you believe them now?
As if Israel wouldn't lie and concoct this story? Particularly after all the justified worldwide disdain for their genocidal acts...

Who then is really hasty and naive?

originally posted by: JiggyPotamus
So Israel can admit that Hamas was not behind the incident, and then be contradicted by one guy that nobody has ever heard of, and that makes it true? I'm just asking. Just trying to establish what you think the standards for evidence are. Even if Hamas was behind the incident this does not justify Israel's actions. Hamas' actions are deplorable as well, but apparently some find it difficult to make the distinction between people living in Gaza and Hamas. There is a difference.

Can you show me the exact quote made by the Israeli official where they admitted that?

This thread is both hilarious and sad:

Hilarious seeing such things as "genocide" being posted. If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they would have been gone years ago. They wouldn't be warning civilians with calls, texts and leaflets before attacking Hamas strongholds in schools, hospitals and apartments complexes. Hilarious seeing those maps posted with zero context...because context would destroy that argument.

Sad seeing the blatant bigotry towards Jews all over these forums that is allowed to continue unabated by the powers that be. Knowing that it is not allowed when discussing other races or religions. Sad seeing how people will blatantly ignore facts simply to push their agenda of hate.

As another said, ATS used to be a place to come for news and info, now it has mainly become a cesspool of hate and paranoia.