When did Palestine exist as more than a map notation?

Lately, the media has been full of people from all over who will claim that the land of Israel belongs to the Palestinians by birthright. It was apparently their land and only their land.

This seems to ignore people like King David and King Solomon for establishing a history to either side of the issue and debate, but sometimes the small details get lost in the passion of the moment.

There is a real timeline of history here. It does not seem to match what people are claiming. It can be called close but I was raised to believe close only counts for hand grenades and games of horseshoes.

Here is that timeline. Can someone tell me where Palestine had time to exist as a nation vs. the map name to a managed territory of other empires?

Year 632 - 1258: The Caliphate rules the region in totality. This ended with the Mongol destruction of Baghdad in the year 1258.

1259 - 1920 : The Ottoman Empire rises from modern day Turkey to rule the region for nearly 600 years. They collapsed in 1918 with the end of World War I. The last Sultan of the Ottoman Empire fled office in 1922. A new Republic is formed in modern Turkey by 1924.

There is a small gap here between 1918 and 1920. They may have squeaked out something for that short period?

1920 - 1947: The British Mandate Period covered these years following an agreement by the League of Nations in July of 1922. It came into effect for the area in September of 1923 and following the Treaty of Lausanne.

The British rules a growing herd of cats snapping at each other as much as they were determined to expel the British in a common cause. Jews and Arabs, in the same place. The serious migration of the Jewish people from outside that region began in 1939.

1939 - 1948: Aliyah Bet commenced. Aliyah simply means immigration and that was the focus.

Did a nation named Palestine exist before the first Caliphate of Islam? History is saying that Israel certainly existed before that time. I just cannot find a period on any timelines when a nation or sovereign power named 'Palestine' or anything which could have evolved into what we see in claims today could have stood?

I do see where it has been used as a territorial name, and the British Mandate period is also called the Palestine Mandate. Still, Palestine from what? That Mandate was born directly out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire that ruled for 600 years with no gaps to the major power before it?

Can someone more knowledgeable on history explain how this is being determined?

a reply to: MrCynic

Alright, lets give the native americans back their land and head back to britain.

a reply to: MrCynic

I'm curious as well.



Interesting. An interesting, practical topic.

(may god have mercy on your soul)

lolz

Why does all that matter? Try not to focus on the past, because it doesn't exist.

What we have in the here and now is that Israel has just murdered 400 innocent children of a defenceless people. You know: human beings.

soulwaxer

a reply to: MrCynic

Can we please stop perpetuating the myth that a certain group of people are entitled to property/land because they may have ancestors that were there 3,000 to 5,000 years ago?

Are the entire world's populations supposed to revert back to where our ancestors were 5,000 years ago?

By that same logic, I suppose that the ancestors of American Indians are entitled to my house and property, which brings me to another point.

We laugh at Indian claims on land which are 150 years old but a 5,000 year old claim is legitimate?

Most of these Jews arent even Sephardic. They're Ashkenazis or Eastern European. Many believe that they are actually descendants of the Khazars, converts to Judaism as described in the The Thirteenth Tribe.

When you think about the insanity of it, there are Eastern Europeans coming into the Middle East and ordering Palestinian Arabs to abandon their ancestral/indigenous homes and property...

Which country isnt a "map notation"? The borders of nation states have been re-written and countries created out of nothing, generally after a time of war and conquest.

The hope is that we as a people have evolved to the point where we see the clear immorality of taking someone's property by force. Here in the West, the taking of property by force is referred to as stealing.

Seems reasonable to me that indigenous populations are the rightful owners of the land they were born on. Where exactly do people think the Palestinian Arabs came from? They've always been right there in the Middle East...

And lets not forget how this all started. The Palestinians never went looking for any trouble. They were on their own land, minding their own business when they were descended upon in a very violent manner and attacked thru no fault of their own.

originally posted by: soulwaxer
Why does all that matter? Try not to focus on the past, because it doesn't exist.

What we have in the here and now is that Israel has just murdered 400 innocent children of a defenceless people. You know: human beings.

soulwaxer

The past doesn't exist?

Wow, and all this time I've been under the impression we're supposed to learn from past mistakes (and successes).

This is a game-changer!

a reply to: MrCynic

She's knowledgeable ...

a reply to: gladtobehere

Do you have any background to what I'm actually asking with my thread?

If Israels claim by the old Nation of Israel is too old, that is a whole different debate and thread. The argument often raised in support of Palestine is a claim from history by the Palestinians. Fair enough, and I got to looking when I realized I had recalled Empires in that region back to the Romans and beyond. I had never read about anything which could translate as a "Palestine".

Do you know if there has been a sovereign power on that land in some time during the past for a claim to understand today as Palestine? I was confused to see it wasn't so easy a question to find the answer to.

originally posted by: Stuyvesant

originally posted by: soulwaxer
Why does all that matter? Try not to focus on the past, because it doesn't exist.

What we have in the here and now is that Israel has just murdered 400 innocent children of a defenceless people. You know: human beings.

soulwaxer

The past doesn't exist?

Wow, and all this time I've been under the impression we're supposed to learn from past mistakes (and successes).

This is a game-changer!

Let me try this again. The past DOES NOT EXIST. You can still learn from the past while it doesn't exist. Just like you can still learn from your father after he is gone. Do you understand this?

soulwaxer

I'm interested in what is found with regards to the historic origins of nation or country of Palestine.

I had heard or read someplace that there never was a country called Palestine because they had a different name for themselves or it was some label arbitrarily given to them at the time. I'll like to see someone get to the bottom of this one.

a reply to: soulwaxer

I appreciate your very strong opinions on the topic of the war between Israel and Gaza right now. There are probably a dozen threads on the past couple pages of that recent listing feature dealing with some aspect of that.

I didn't start this thread for a new space to fight the Israel vs. Gaza passions.

I am sincerely and genuinely curious about the TRUTH behind the often repeated and commonly accepted idea that there is a solid past historic claim, after I couldn't find a logical place for it to have come from.

My question is 100% about and focused exclusively upon History, so the past is all that exists here in this context.

a reply to: MrCynic

Let me answer your question this way.

The majority of Jews in Israel came from Europe, or of European decent.In fact where they came from doesn't really matter.
Jews living in Israel now and their forefathers have interbreed with non-Jews over many years.
So, is there such a thing as a 100% true blood Jew living in Israel. I would suspect the answer is a resounding no.
So what gives them title to the land they live on?

a reply to: MrCynic The Bible gives you the clue as to why they are fighting. Saul ( from the tribe of Benjamin) was the first king of Israel ( modern Israel today ) named by GOD himself. While on the other hand David ( from the tribe of Judah ) was the secondth king of Israel after Saul. David was named king by GOD too. The interesting part is that David was not Saul's son, and the land of Judah is also named as Palestine. The problem is that there is 2 kingship lineage in Israel. The benjamites only recognizes the Saul's lineage, while Judeans recognizes David's lineage. Figure it out the rest.

originally posted by: samsamm9
a reply to: MrCynic

She's knowledgeable ...

Funny, this old windbag (RIP) was dropped from her job for these statements. She was censured by President Obama (among many many others), and she offered an apology/retraction at the time - which did her no good. She still got canned for those statements.

Knowledgeable is not the word I'd use to describe her. She basically maintained that one can't criticize Israel and remain unpunished. That shows how ignorant she was. She had no decorum, no commonsense, and no discretion. She was always a raving, opinionated liberal and a laughingstock to what few sane individuals were in her journalistic circle and [even fewer] sane government officials she reported on.

Her comments were stupid then, and they remain stupid to this day. They will always remain stupid, because it was just a stupid thing to say. Even dolts like Obama recognized how stupid her words were.

originally posted by: MrCynic
a reply to: soulwaxer

I appreciate your very strong opinions on the topic of the war between Israel and Gaza right now. There are probably a dozen threads on the past couple pages of that recent listing feature dealing with some aspect of that.

I didn't start this thread for a new space to fight the Israel vs. Gaza passions.

I am sincerely and genuinely curious about the TRUTH behind the often repeated and commonly accepted idea that there is a solid past historic claim, after I couldn't find a logical place for it to have come from.

My question is 100% about and focused exclusively upon History, so the past is all that exists here in this context.

I understand that your question is 100% about history. All I’m saying is that you should not focus on the past. That type of mindset is exactly what causes all the hatred between the religions. They argue about the past and kill people who don’t agree with them.

So don’t be a slave to the past. That’s akin to playing the victim’s role.

Let go of all of that and be a winner. I believe in you!

soulwaxer

originally posted by: soulwaxer

originally posted by: Stuyvesant

originally posted by: soulwaxer
Why does all that matter? Try not to focus on the past, because it doesn't exist.

What we have in the here and now is that Israel has just murdered 400 innocent children of a defenceless people. You know: human beings.

soulwaxer

The past doesn't exist?

Wow, and all this time I've been under the impression we're supposed to learn from past mistakes (and successes).

This is a game-changer!

Let me try this again. The past DOES NOT EXIST. You can still learn from the past while it doesn't exist. Just like you can still learn from your father after he is gone. Do you understand this?

soulwaxer

I do understand that. I was just making sure you did, because I got the impression that the "400 innocent children of a defenceless people" Israel allegedly murdered was your starting point for "here and now."

The "here and now" picture includes (or should include) the recognition that the land of Israel is Israel's, that they have a right to defend it, and that the problem(s) are way more complicated and multifaceted than one or two selective events.

a reply to: MrCynic

I can appreciate your statement:

I am sincerely and genuinely curious about the TRUTH behind the often repeated and commonly accepted idea that there is a solid past historic claim, after I couldn't find a logical place for it to have come from.

So I looked back to another web site I had seen this morning. They are showing several maps which do show a place called Palestine, or variations on that name, in the same location. Map of the known world, 43AD (Oh, look! Palestina!)
You will need to enlarge this maps:

whatreallyhappened.com...

To see where the name is written. It is on the coast right next to Judea .
It is also about the same size, if you notice.

Well, it's mostly a geographical/territorial apprehension since forever.

There were only 2 instances when political status of 'Palestine nation' was proclaimed, first time by the roman king Hadrianus in the first century and the second time after the WW1 by the British (Palestine Mandate).

Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire meant that Palestine (and all other countries involved) were under the Ottoman rule and therefore lost their sovereignty but all of them were still called by their own name. So instead a country they were called provinces or whatever Turkish equivalent was for a province. Territory of Palestine never lost it's original name.

I wish more posters would chip in because this is (could become) a very smart thread just please don't start quoting the Bible and try some real history books instead.

a reply to: MrCynic
Putting things in perspective, the same is true for Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. They were just areas in the Ottoman Empire until the carve-up into British and French mandates.
The British mandate of Palestine included what is now Jordan.
So yes, the "nation" of Palestine is somewhat artificial, though this doesn't alter the fact that the individual families have been occupants of the land.

Incidentally, the period 1918-20 would be covered by British post-war military occupation. The position was then regularised by the peace treaties with Turkey and by the League of Nations mandates.

originally posted by: Stuyvesant

originally posted by: soulwaxer

originally posted by: Stuyvesant

originally posted by: soulwaxer
Why does all that matter? Try not to focus on the past, because it doesn't exist.

What we have in the here and now is that Israel has just murdered 400 innocent children of a defenceless people. You know: human beings.

soulwaxer

The past doesn't exist?

Wow, and all this time I've been under the impression we're supposed to learn from past mistakes (and successes).

This is a game-changer!

Let me try this again. The past DOES NOT EXIST. You can still learn from the past while it doesn't exist. Just like you can still learn from your father after he is gone. Do you understand this?

soulwaxer

I do understand that. I was just making sure you did, because I got the impression that the "400 innocent children of a defenceless people" Israel allegedly murdered was your starting point for "here and now."

The "here and now" picture includes (or should include) the recognition that the land of Israel is Israel's, that they have a right to defend it, and that the problem(s) are way more complicated and multifaceted than one or two selective events.

I think that we may hold a different concept of “defending” and brutally attacking and murdering innocent victims day in and day out, for all the world to see.

Or is all of that Palestinian propaganda (LOL, like they have that kind of power and reach in the western mainstream media..). On the other hand, we all know what kind of hold the zionists have on the media, and politics for that matter. You know, like pulling the antisemitism card, but that tactic is running out of juice, if it isn’t dead and buried already.

soulwaxer