"Heaven is for Real"...Or Is It?

a reply to: adjensen
Good post.
I was going to use the verse in Phillipians, along with the one in 2Corinthians, but changed my mind. You also used a few good verses I didn't think of at the time. So do you think all the verses about the dead knowing nothing, or sleeping, are strictly in reference to the physical body? That would seem to make the most sense from the perspective you are coming from.
Also, do you think Christs comment in John 3:13 is because it was pre-crucifixion? And what about Elijah? There must be a dozen questions one could ask, but I'll save that for another time.

a reply to: Klassified

So do you think all the verses about the dead knowing nothing, or sleeping, are strictly in reference to the physical body?

There was a tendency to interchange "asleep" and "dead" in literature of that time.

Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

“But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” (John 11:1-15 NIV)

Also, do you think Christs comment in John 3:13 is because it was pre-crucifixion?

Yes. It is commonly accepted that Christ was the first into heaven. Prior to that, all people went to Sheol, the underworld ("Hades" in Greek,) the righteous to the Bosom of Abraham, the naughty to some sort of suffering (all of this is Jewish folklore, though it is recollected in some things that Jesus taught.) When Christ died, he performed the Harrowing of Hell, opened the gates of Heaven, stepped through and brought the righteous with him.

And what about Elijah?

Boy, him and Enoch… not a clue.

There must be a dozen questions one could ask, but I'll save that for another time.

Klass, I seriously hope that you'll be back on the show next week and we can start talking about them

a reply to: thesmokingman

In all cases, Heaven is Heavens in the Bible and is pointing to the part of the universe above Earth. Ephesians tells us there are families and principalities in Heaven. In other words, we are not alone. To inherit the heavens, we must transcend these bodies for the next body. Flesh cannot exist in the heavens.

originally posted by: Klassified
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. So do you think all the verses about the dead knowing nothing, or sleeping, are strictly in reference to the physical body?
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The word hades is the translation of sheol(which is frequently translated hell).It means the grave,the realm of death and imperception.When a person dies they are dead and in the realm of death and imperception.Yahoshua said Lazarus "sleeps"(hypnos) because it was temporary.Yahoshua raised Lazarus from the realm of death BACK to the material(matter) realm life.He only "slept" because he was going to have to "die again".

Hades is the realm of death and imperception.The material realm is the valley of the SHADOW of death.The material realm is the realm everything "dies" in.It is also the realm of the shadow of imperception which is religion.ALL of mankind "perceives" their life in the material realm through belief in faith of "their" Belief System religion".All of mankind are in essence "asleep" in the realm of imperception of the material realm.They cannot perceive the creator God they can only believe in faith their Belief System religion.

The creator Gods purpose for mankind(and all of creation)is Yahoshua..the creator God IS deliverance.The creator God will deliver ALL of mankind from hades…the realm of death..the realm of imperception BY Yahoshua.NONE have been delivered from the realm of death.That is THE resurrection..the new birth from "death" to LIFE into the realm of the Kingdom of God where man will LIVE(and not die) in"their heavenS" the Kingdom of the heavens.

All of the dead are still dead in the realm of death.There is no place "the eternal punishment of hell" hell.There is no "heaven".Only the REALM of the Kingdom of the creator God.

Here is a summary of the Islamic perspective on the after life.

When we die we are approached by the angel of death who takes our soul from the body. We believe that there are two worlds; this physical world that we live in while our soul is with our body, and another world unseen to us called the Barzakh, where our soul goes to when we die.

If the person was a righteous believer, then he will not be punished in the Barzakh, however if he was disobedient, if he was a disbeliever then that person is punished in the Barzakh. There are different levels of punishment, depending on the bad deeds of the person. It is possible for a person more move through the different levels in the Barzakh (severe punishment to less severe, or even no punishment at all).

Every soul stays in the Barzakh until the day of judgement. On the day of judgement our bodies will be reformed, and our soul will return to the body. We will all be about 33 years old (in appearance). The day of judgement itself has its punishments, like the world of the Barzakh. It is a day that will last 50,000 years (or feel like it, not sure if the concept of time exists in the next world). Each person will be judged one at a time by God. At the end, everyone will be given (by the angels) their book of deeds. The people who receive their books in their right hand, their faces will brighten up and they will be filled with joy. The people who receive their books in their left hand will immediately be saddened and depressed. Some people will hide their left hand behind their back, and the angels will shove it into their hand from behind them, these are the worst people.

The people of hell fire will be taken to hell, and the people of heaven will be gathered to the gates of heaven (there are 8 of them). There are also people whose good deeds equal their bad deeds. They will be gathered in a place with no punishment and no reward for some time, until God sends them to heaven. There are 7 levels of heaven, and 7 levels of heaven (each level with many more sublevels). Like in the Barzakh, its possible to more up the levels.

Certain people in heaven will be able to intercede for those in hell (like the prophets/messengers, martyrs, very good people, ect.) . Or they could interceded to raise the ranks of some people who are already in heaven. This intersession will go on for some time. God himself will take out people from hell and place them in heaven. Eventually even those who had 0 good deeds (but did not associate partners with God) will enter paradise.

When the intercession is done, its over. Those still in hell, remain there forever. Same with those in heaven.

If anyone is interested I could go into more details, such as the punishment of the Barzakh, the punishment of day of Judgement, the descriptions of hell and heaven, what the last person to enter heaven would have, how to raise your rank in the Barzakh, description of the day of judgement, or any other question you may have.

a reply to: Datadayne

Very interesting, thank you for sharing that!

I guess that the thing most of us non-Muslim people hear about as regards the afterlife is the "72 virgins" thing -- how does that come into play?

a reply to: adjensen

These come from weak hadiths (not the Quran), that martyrs will have 72 wives. 2 from the descendant of Adam, and 70 from the Hoor al-ayn.

The general belief is that men will have at least 2 wives in heaven, while the women will have only one husband (they will be satisfied, and there will be no jealousy in heaven). There are different creations in heaven, one of them is the Hoor al-ayns. There is no specific number that scholars agree upon, but the men will be married to these creations as well.

From what ive read, invoking 70 in Arabic used to signify abundance. For example the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that 70,000 people (the most righteous) will enter heaven without being accounted, 70,000 people will immediately follow the Anti-Christ when he comes to deceive the people, 70,000 angels pray for you when you visit a sick believer, hell will be tied to 70,000 leashes, each leash will be held by 70,000 angels.

So 2 wives of the descendant of Adam, and 70 (many) from the Hoor al-ayns. Again, this figure of 72 comes from weak narrations, we are not supposed to give attention to the weak narrations, but we don't flat out deny it.

And God knows best.

a reply to: thesmokingman

Text So basically it states that the people that are ALREADY dead, will be the first to rise to Heaven. Not that they are already there. However, many Christians I have spoke to believe that when you die you immediately go to Heaven and are reunited with deceased loved ones, and able to look down upon living relatives. As I stated earlier, I personally do not believe any of this, but I am very curious. How do the Christians of ATS feel about this? This movie is supposed to be based on true events, and many have these very same beliefs. However according to your own Bible, it clearly states that no one will rise to heaven, before the second coming of Christ. On a side not, I respect the fact that some are believers and some are not. I just ask please have respect for MY beliefs as well, and lets just try and have a

Let me be clear about what I am about to say. This is all theology and nothing can be stated as fact. This entire subject matter is being discussed with the understanding that all of this is individual beliefs.

Prior to Jesus all people who had died did have a spirit which descended into Sheol. Sheol was a place located in the bowels of this earth which had divisions which held the good separated from the bad. At the time of Jesus no man had as yet ascended into the celestial ream (heaven). Jesus taught that when a person died that they were a conscious spirit which was immediately judged and sentenced but they were still held in Sheol as bad separated from good. The soul (body) returned to the elements of the earth or waters.

As Jesus died, He established His kingdom of heaven which He had always preached by introducing the New Jerusalem. Upon death He descended into Sheol and release the good (righteous) spirits into His kingdom of heaven (New Jerusalem). This was the first group of spirits who were dead and who were resurrected into the celestial realm. These were given a new spiritual covering and a new name written on a white stone. They eat and drink from the Trees and water of life in the New Jerusalem forever.

Thereafter as all people die they are immediately judged and sentenced at death. The spirit of one that now dies is also immediately judged and sentenced. That person is either in hell or the kingdom of heaven in a conscious state. This is not the first or second general gathering (resurrection) which is in the future. This is only (as of today) regarding those before the new covenant of Christ Jesus. All who die now are on an individual basis judged and sentenced and are either in Sheol (hell) or New Jerusalem.

You said that -- Quote "However according to your own Bible, it clearly states that no one will rise to heaven, before the second coming of Christ." Unquote

Suggestion - Read the 24 th chapter of Matthew --