The Terror Wars are ending but did Bin Laden win?

America may be in trouble. I came across something by accident today that I had completely forgotten about. It came out over 10 years ago and so much has happened since then. This is a different nation. The world is a different place. What I find scary is that this has all come to happen how our arch enemy warned us it would in plain language, point by point.

I had forgotten Bin Laden had been blunt and outright plain to the American people once. It was a letter he produced specifically for the American people, and it was the only one of its kind that I remember seeing or hearing about. (were there others?)

Considering the words of a dead man now leaves me with a chill. One part at the end stands out in particular.

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began (we have), just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen (they did), fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace (in the process of happening). If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup (currently happening), ideological downfall (depends on who is asked), and economic bankruptcy (Nat'l Debt in 9/2001 was 5.8 Trillion. Check).

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

Src
(red text added for comments)

Those are his words and his message to the public. I do not remember how I felt but I likely laughed it off back then. The Iraq war had yet to start in early 2002 when that come out. Bin laden had been lost at Tora Bora a few months before and this was his way of saying hello again. It seemed certain he could never dodge the mighty US Military, so I doubt I gave this much thought.

We should have. We still need to step back and understand why defeat has now come three times in fights between cultures. However the West may have viewed this, it is clear at least a segment of their number saw it as nothing short of it.

It's amazing to re-read his entire letter with 2014 eyes.

No.
Hes dead.
America has an even greater presence over the Earth.
He lost.

a reply to: RationalHuman

Oh, he is dead. The only question is whether he died in 2002 or whether he died by Navy SEALs in Pakistan. He is dead.

He sparked and led an ideal and movement which has bloomed into an international fighting Jihad now running on many fronts. Bleeding the treasure and resources of the forces being fought seems to be a common theme. Relatively small hits cost 1st world nations billions in response and over-reaction. Then, done over and over as it has been.

That does not account for the 6 trillion in national debt in the month the war began to over 17 trillion today. Over 11 trillion dollars or over 2x's what it took the nation it's history to build, racked up over the course of this one war.

I have no sympathy to the terrorists. Far from it. I don't see anyone asking these questions though, so the lessons that may scream to be learned so a repeat does not come again seem lost. The world is a place now more likely to see something trigger it all over again. It's a bad time for leaders to be obtuse.

originally posted by: RationalHuman
No.
Hes dead.
America has an even greater presence over the Earth.
He lost.

Really?

You measure success by might?

What has the USA sacrificed?

You have given up many of the values your country was built on. Since 9/11look whats happened?

TSA who molest old ladies and people in wheel chairs.

Militrized police that shot first and ask queastion later

Torture

The patriot act

Detension without trial

Huge expansion of the CIA/NSA ect

Larger and more numourus federal agencys

Cooperations getting fat off war profiteering


Id say the USA is a dam sight worse off.

But cause the US military is mightly its USA USA USA?

Well a world empire and shiny military is no use if your countrys rotting at the core and tyranny is sweeping over.

But you ignore that and bury your head in the sand.

a reply to: MrCynic

Oh, he is dead. The only question is whether he died in 2002 or whether he died by Navy SEALs in Pakistan. He is dead.

...Ok. Uhm. Yeah he's dead.

He sparked and led an ideal and movement which has bloomed into an international fighting Jihad now running on many fronts. Bleeding the treasure and resources of the forces being fought seems to be a common theme. Relatively small hits cost 1st world nations billions in response and over-reaction. Then, done over and over as it has been.

Yes.

That does not account for the 6 trillion in national debt in the month the war began to over 17 trillion today. Over 11 trillion dollars or over 2x's what it took the nation it's history to build, racked up over the course of this one war.

That's true as well.

I have no sympathy to the terrorists.

Thats good

so the lessons that may scream to be learned so a repeat does not come again seem lost. The world is a place now more likely to see something trigger it all over again. It's a bad time for leaders to be obtuse.

That's wonderful, and I even agree to some degree.


So a war was waged, and of course both sides get damaged. I believe this is how most wars work. But in the end one side wins.


Yes one person caused a lot of damage.
But he didn't win.

Bin Laden never claimed. Responsibility for 9/11 and the Taliban said they would hand him over after seeing proof he was involved in it bin Laden and his rain of terror is a figment of the civilian imagination created by the cia of course he has won because who ever wrote that letter wrote it knowing that was their goals and I guaranty it was an American that wrote that letter just the other day the president of the USA said yea we tortured some foke after 9/11 but it's ok to torture because of 9/11 one must sit down and think putting logic aside and really think which government bennifit ed from 9/11 can almost do what ever they want if questioned all they have to say is 9/11 now also remember USA supports al qa ciad in Syria did so in Libya this is all after 9/11 USA actually gave money and training to people in al Qaeda to fight in Syria and Libya this is not speculation this is fact the UK as well so uk and USA fund people who attack them gee wizz I wonder WHY????

a reply to: crazyewok

You measure success by might?

No, I don't. One of Osama Bin Ladens main justification for his campaign against the United States, was the US presence across the world, and how he believed the country was abusing its power against Muslims. Which is why I said it

What has the USA sacrificed?

I feel this is a rhetorical question.

You have given up many of the values your country was built on

No i really haven't

TSA who molest old ladies and people in wheel chairs.

The TSA was created to increase the safety of air travel. People work in the TSA. People, regardless of where they work, occasionally abuse power. This is not new

Militrized police that shot first and ask queastion later

Uhm. Are we still talking about values?
Please stay on topic.

Torture

I think that's been around a liiiiittle longer than the war on terror

Detension without trial

I totally agree that that's bad
But it does not apply to American citizens

Huge expansion of the CIA/NSA ect Larger and more numourus federal agencys

That would happen regardless of the War on Terror

Cooperations getting fat off war profiteering

Again, this is bad, but not new. Hey at least the corporations don't have their own private armies anymore right?

Well a world empire and shiny military is no use if your countrys rotting at the core and tyranny is sweeping over.

I agree.
But fortunately that isn't the case.

a reply to: MrCynic

Here's another one, the Religious Right gaining more influence in American society and wanting to turn our nation into a Theocratic Regime just like Afghanistan under the Taliban only instead of Islam it's under the banner of Christianity.

Maybe so.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Eerily accurate.

a reply to: RyleeNator

Bin Laden never claimed. Responsibility for 9/11

news.bbc.co.uk...

Here

the Taliban said they would hand him over after seeing proof he was involved in it

All I can really say to this is. No. They didn't.
If they did, show me

who ever wrote that letter wrote it knowing that was their goals and I guaranty it was an American that wrote that letter

Is this just your guess? Do you have any reason to believe this? Any evidence?

government bennifit ed from 9/11

So....we won?

You kind of went off track and I couldn't easily follow your sentences. (Or lack thereof)
My apologies if I missed something

a reply to: RationalHuman

So a war was waged, and of course both sides get damaged. I believe this is how most wars work. But in the end one side wins.

I was going to add something longer, but I think it can be summed up by the simple point at the end of my thought.

Where are we at if they truly did mean to simply avoid losing......to declare victory and honestly consider that a 100% win? It's a scary place to be. It's something I've wondered myself.

If causing us to lose qualified as victory, (which is precisely what he was a part for causing with the Soviets) ....... then I wonder where that does leave everything now?

* Pardon my boo boos trying to add one simple post. Vacations can bring computer problems. Yup.. Like clockwork for timing...

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

If causing us to lose qualified as victory,

I'd definitely say that's a victory, especially against the USA. But that didn't happen.

which is precisely what he was a part for causing with the Soviets

Well, hardly. They did play a role, but it definitely wasn't even close to the largest. As estimated Here, the cost of the War to the soviets was about 50-60 billion US Dollars
Which is about (And even less by some estimates) the cost of Soviet Project 971 Щука-Б, designed to create titanium submarines.
Thats all the entire project did.
They didn't even use them
They spent a lot more money on even more trivial things. Not to mention their entire economic system was inflated artificially.

a reply to: RationalHuman

I can't stay around to pursue this in the depth I would love to. My online time is cramped ATM. Primitive, is another apt term.

As a quick aside though.....I do vaguely recall the level of event the last Soviet convoy out had been. I also do recall a video covering it and how it played.

I think history leaves no question in saying Afghanistan took a toll far beyond a cost in Rubles or equipment. They took it worse than we did in ours by the sheer brutality and total war both sides fell into in the 80's.

Afghanistan isn't termed "The place Empires go to die" with any humor at all. It's earned the name by blood of 4 Super Power nations for how each was seen in their respective piece of history as each lost with a mighty high price paid in the process.

The war on terror was lost by america the day they decided to become a nany state, there wasting there taxes away to protect themselves againts a boogy man, you have more chance to get hit by lightning than dying from a terrorist attack.

Wheres the war on lightning?

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I can't stay around to pursue this in the depth I would love to. My online time is cramped ATM. Primitive, is another apt term.

Understood
If you don't reply it's fine

I think history leaves no question in saying Afghanistan took a toll far beyond a cost in Rubles or equipment. They took it worse than we did in ours by the sheer brutality and total war both sides fell into in the 80's.

True, but they were far more worried of international opinion. A seemingly unprovoked invasion doesn't exactly make communism look favorable to the world.
Not to mention that their defeat was do to support of Afghanistan by the US, Egypt, Iran, Turkey, China, Pakistan, the UK, and others. Not just the Mujaheddin.

It's earned the name by blood of 4 Super Power nations for how each was seen

You mean, one?

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

there wasting there taxes away to protect themselves againts a boogy man, you have more chance to get hit by lightning than dying from a terrorist attack.

Yeah you're right, Who cares about other people?
Who cares if people are killing people? If they aren't killing me I shouldn't care.

Who cares if a group of people want to form a regime based on violence, and radical Islam.
Who cares if they cut off limbs, bury homosexuals, cut off fingers for having painted nails, don't hold fair trials, violate international human rights treaties, etc.
If it isnt happening to me, lets not to anything.

All those dying of Ebola in Africa?
Well statistically I'm more likely to die by lighting
Why are we sending doctors to Africa?
Why arent we using those funds to stop lighting?

Good point

They say experts believe bin Laden wrote the letter there should be no douth and yes you hit the nail on the head USA won enjoy your freedom I presume you be getting more and more freedom the more you win
Sorry about my lack of full stops and inadequate sentences Ily to: RationalHuman

What people fail to realize is that radical Islam, or just Islamic extremism in general, cannot be defeated with military might. It is not feasible. The more individuals who are killed the greater the future threat. It is too late to end the hatred now by using military might, as it is already present. It is unlikely that any other method will be successful either, but if the mindset and religion could be defeated then these problems would not be present any longer. There would still be problems, but nothing on the scale that Islam poses. It is not a religion of peace, and for Bin Laden to be so self-righteous to think that his actions and those of his followers are somehow justified is ridiculous. Are we not talking about the same society that kills women who get raped, when it is not even their fault? A society where a father will kill his own daughter rather than suffer "shame?"

Give me a break. I used to believe the claims that Islam was a religion of peace, but I have sense educated myself. The best source of information comes from those who were raised into the religion but who had their basic human decency drive them from it. And for the Muslims who are not "radical," well obviously they aren't following Islam. When it comes to religion I will always have more respect for a doctrine that teaches turning the other cheek, forgiving your enemies, etc., simply because it is humane. While atrocities have been committed under such a religion, like Christianity, it does not advocate violence in any form. The violence present in the Bible was before Christianity even emerged, as those were Jewish books. The crazy laws in Judaism, which were not carried over into Christianity, are pretty horrible as well. People bash Christianity based on the Old Testament, which makes no sense at all when you understand the religion.

What is my point with this line of reasoning? My point is that even Bin Laden basically implied it was Christianity vs Islam. He stated they were morally superior in so few words, and it is no secret that the US is predominantly Christian when it comes to religious affiliation. So my point is that even with the atrocities committed by America, a mainly Christian nation, are no different from those committed by Muslims. If any argument could be made it would be easiest to argue that the atrocities of Islam are far worse, but that is not a proven fact. It is definitely true in today's world. It just irritates me that someone could be committing horrible acts, even against their own people, yet claim to be morally superior. It seems like a delusion, but I suppose this is what all organized religion can turn into.

I am reminded of the son of the Hamas leader who converted to Christianity. He basically stated the same thing regarding beating Islam being done in the mind, in beliefs, rather than with bombs and firearms. He was a devout Muslim who realized that the teachings of Christianity were superior, considering you are taught to forgive your enemies. He said something about how Christ supposedly forgave his executioners while he was being executed, and that is a powerful message. Even if you do not believe that stuff, doesn't it seem like a good way to live your life regardless? Doesn't it seem to be more harmonious with your fellow man that violence? Now whether one subscribes to the religion or not is immaterial, as I would like to ask this question: would you feel safer if everyone in the world were Muslim or Christian? I would prefer the latter, no matter my religious affiliation, based purely on the doctrine alone. And religion must be brought up in a discussion of this nature, because every single thing that Bin Laden said in that letter is driven by religion. Most societies in that area of the world are driven by religion. So if you are going to have that many people believing in something, I want that something to be a positive influence rather than a negative, destructive one. And when Christians commit bad deeds they are not following their religion, while it is the other way around for Muslims.

a reply to: RationalHuman

I think that's been around a liiiiittle longer than the war on terror

There is a report set to hit news stands in the very near future about the torture committed by US intelligence and by US policy during part of this war. It's thought to be so serious they are increasing embassy security that another thread here talks about. There isn't much humor to anything happening with that topic right now. A lot of people are very likely about to be hurt in and out of Government service. Some deserving and many not.

I totally agree that that's bad
But it does not apply to American citizens

No, Americans just get a drone fired Hellfire missile up their keester in a far-off land. Jose Padilla had his indefinite detention pretty easy compared to the two in Yemen who got a verdict air-delivered by remote control. This nation has changed in small and large ways. Some ways are worse than others in the name of safety and vengeance returned 100 fold by now.

That would happen regardless of the War on Terror

The expansion of the CIA and NSA to monster levels would have happened anyway? Were you around for President Bill Clinton and the near heckling he took for his gutting of the Intelligence community? Do you not recall the open jokes made in media about how the CIA knew everything but how to get it's director a face 2 face with the President??

The CIA became the gorilla it is today while the NSA has become "The Ear Men" of the V for Vendetta plot by Bush and then President Obama carrying on the same people and policies. Did you know the current Director of the FBI was 2nd at Justice while all the memos to justify torture were being crafted and copied for official records at the White House? He's an Obama appointment to FBI now.

Nothing changed. Nothing has improved. The deck chairs have been shuffled and we're supposed to smile and agree it looks mighty pretty now. We're supposed to believe the deck is supposed to lean that much too, and the water lapping up quickly is all supposed to be that way.

Hey at least the corporations don't have their own private armies anymore right?

Oh Really? You believe the Private Military Contracting market has taken a dramatic downsizing for lack of available work around the world? That is an interesting interpretation of events.