Israel media war - on ATS as well??? Are we infilitrated?

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Nuking those cities prevented an invasion. That invasion was estimated to have 100k plus casualties on the Allied side alone. Now factor in the half to one million Japanese casualties many being civilian. Yeah I have no problem with that decision.
Ask any mother with a kid in the Pacific what her decision would have been.
Don't forget the Russians were going to invade from the north to, remember how Germany was split after the war? Japan had that in their future.

According to Oliver Stone, war would end as soon as Russia was close to Japan homeland - and that bombs were unnecessary show of power. Interesting, coming from an Vietnam veteran. I strongly suggest to check his documentary.

And I would never feel OK to kill that many civilians, enemy or not. Soldiers in field of war - OK - but civilians and children - no.

* duplicate

originally posted by: Metallicus
There are two sides to every argument.

None of these people are innocent.

Yes, that is true, something I and others have mentioned in the past. Sadly, eager militarists and governments replace God with their actions, and when innocent people die is it safe to say that God is not on their side?
It just shows the cant and hypocrisy of wars. For HAMAS and Israel, and all the rest STFU about your Gods, for you don't have any.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Nuking those cities prevented an invasion. That invasion was estimated to have 100k plus casualties on the Allied side alone. Now factor in the half to one million Japanese casualties many being civilian. Yeah I have no problem with that decision.
Ask any mother with a kid in the Pacific what her decision would have been.
Don't forget the Russians were going to invade from the north to, remember how Germany was split after the war? Japan had that in their future.

According to Oliver Stone, war would end as soon as Russia was close to Japan homeland - and that bombs were unnecessary show of power. Interesting, coming from an Vietnam veteran. I strongly suggest to check his documentary.

And I would never feel OK to kill that many civilians, enemy or not. Soldiers in field of war - OK - but civilians and children - no.

You should watch Oliver stones documentary on socialism in south america. He didn't even bother to interview Hugo Chavez opponents. I tend to take anyone's politically motivated documentaries with a grain of salt.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

According to Oliver Stone, war would end as soon as Russia was close to Japan homeland - and that bombs were unnecessary show of power. Interesting, coming from an Vietnam veteran. I strongly suggest to check his documentary.

And I would never feel OK to kill that many civilians, enemy or not. Soldiers in field of war - OK - but civilians and children - no.

Yeah, Russia was closing in on Japanese territories in Manchuria. Why don't you go ask some former East Germans what being "liberated" by the Soviet Union ends up like. Japan ended up far better off in the long run the way things went with the American bombing and occupation.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71


I think that the morality of the willful annihilation of perhaps millions of lives in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be debated over thousands of paragraphs without either of the strongly divided, highly opinionated sides convincing the other of their correctness or righteousness. Only the citizens and their offspring of either aforementioned city can really tell the world what nuclear devastation was and is like in the ongoing aftermath. Much like these examples of the only combat use in history of tactical nuclear devices, there's just no moral high ground to be found in these very emotional and vitriolic arguments over the Israeli/Palestinian war.

While military commanders and their civilian controllers down through history would strongly disagree, in my opinion, there's just no justification for targeting civilians in any conflict. Whether its terrorists detonating a boom vest in a crowded market, highly trained crews lobbing artillery on homes, or state-of-the-art fighter/bombers dropping guided munitions on schools/churches/mosques--it is all wrong, from this poster's call it whatever, basic human moral standpoint.

While I'm very new here on ATS, I've been a member of many message boards over the last twenty years or so. I've seen this civilian casualty/collateral damage debate rear its benighted head time and time again. Always there are two sides: those who make impassioned pleas to others in an attempt to gain agreement that such slaughter is indeed terribly unjust--almost as if they're trying to convince themselves that the rest of humanity still retains some degree of compassion, and those who either truly believe the patriotic party line justification for mass civilian death as a valid tactic of their nation's military or simply devil's advocate for the sake of a good debate.

Regardless of the motivation of one's opinion, it seems no side will ever convince the other--at least on a public internet forum.

Myself, I harbor no hatred for any people or nation as a whole. However, I do despise war and the very popular modern culture that glamorizes and romanticizes its "sexy" tools of death, its cool outfits and gadgets, its toys' potential for more and more efficient slaughter.

Without doubt war is necessary, standing armies certainly in every societies best interest. I've served in and during both, and while anyone on the internet can easily make such a claim, I will say so anyway that neither war nor military service is romantic or glamorous, although there are certainly those who think differently.

Speaking to the endless Israeli/Palestinian War, Israeli leadership and its military in my opinion has gone far beyond justification. Wars like these have been fought endlessly down through history. As a nation or people either you've got a large, well armed standing army, or you don't. If the latter is the case, the only real option for armed resistance you've got is to wage a low intensity campaign often comprised of guerilla like hit and run attacks, systemic sabotage, whatever. In either case, always in my opinion (what else have I got?) the intentional targeting of civilians serves one purpose: to instill and spread terror throughout a population. I think it's very wrong; other's call it a psy-op or victory by attrition. In the end, I really don't think any people have ever taught another a lasting "lesson" by mass murder of their civilian population.

a reply to: ShadeWolf

Oh you did not just justify drop of nuke on mostly civilian population, did you?

As for rest of your post, that is exactly why Japan would sign capitulation as they did, much sooner then what would take Russia to reach them. That is exactly Stone's point.

@ AphoticJoe - thank you for well made post!

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

There is no discussion. Rabid palestinian posters shut down any logical discussion on the topic with a zealous gang mentality.

There's no discussion because one side of the argument just plays the perpetual victim. Then they resort to their buzzwords in a desperate attempt to slander opposition and silence them.

"anti-semite"
"neo-nazi"
and now "terrorist supporter"

How many people actually said they support hamas? Not many, most support Palestinians and there is a agenda to make sure it doesn't come across that way.

a reply to: SuperFrog

You are right, i'm just tired of seeing this anti-Israel parade going on here, while they are actually the only ones in the Middle East who are actually standing for values such as freedom and equality.

It might be not the best one in reality like in the rest of the "modern" world, but is sure beats than living under Sharia Law.

I think the world has to wake up to see who are the real aggressors on this planet. Some 11,000,000 Muslims have been killed since Israel's declaration of independence, out of them 35,000 have been killed by wars with Israel. The rest? Yes, Muslims have been killing Muslims long ago, and yet when Israel gets involved in this they are suddenly war criminals and getting ridiculed by the entire planet.

I didn't mean to bash your thread, I just had enough of this unjustified crucifiction of the only voice of reason in the Middle East. The truth has to be said, everything we get to hear is propaganda, and each side has to receive a fair hearing. The truth is somewhere in between.

originally posted by: Metallicus
There are two sides to every argument.

None of these people are innocent.

The Palestinian Civilians are not Innocent? Wrong again.

LOL come on, this thread is such nonsense!!!!!

There are 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world and you expect anyone to believe that the Jews have even remotely the online presence in this retarded propaganda war on the Internet as Islam?

Of course Israel DOES pay posters... there is a reason for this and i'm not trying to be inflammatory... but Most jews have stuff to do, Israel and Judaism in general is Western and spends a lot of time with that Science stuff. That's why the Internet Buzzes with the whole "193 Nobel Prize thing"

The thing is, The Jews mostly... aren't religious fanatics, I'd say state side and in Europe half are likely closet Atheists, Agnostics and those numbers aren't that far off even in Israel, roughly half of Jews in America marry "out" of the faith and are busy making a living, doing that Science stuff and in general just plain living in the 21st century

Now Islam... with the whole "Jihad" thing... well, when World of War Craft is banned in your country because I Guess Elves being long lived and having big ears are way too close to Jews somehow and the idea of a woman practicing magic is a reason to freak out... well, there isn't much to do with that computer but run around the Internet fighting the good fight for Allah...

And that's the bottom line, Islam has a monster army of promoters Online.... more than anyone in the world bar none, no one even comes close...

And should we listen to this tripe?

NO

The truth is, they specifically target certain demographics... in the States, Rural, Poor, Angry at the Government, border line traitorous, loners, mildly schizophrenic... prone to paranoid beliefs. And that IS the profile of the typical non Islamic anti western poster and YES ATS has more than a few of both...

So if it feels like you come in here and are bombarded with a POV that is at once genuinely anti-semetic, anti western and it's backed up by some organized protests and stuff in the real world... don't fret

Realistically the West is still the West, this is a dog and pony show, the vast majority of us understand full well the reality that Islam has a philosophy of convert or die, women have no rights whatsoever, the dead children are dead because grown men hide behind them not because the "west is evil"

Surely and all credit due, the Internet machine that Islam has become is convincing

I track Internet numbers day and night for a living, I assure you "anonymous" being behind Palestine... 90% of this Turkish teenagers lol, a few of the more moronic celebrities like Russel Brand are very convincing to the 19 year old "looking for a cause" sect and I for one think it certainly is appealing to believe that being 36 wearing a rad tshirt not having a job and still taking '___' is a possibility lol... but that will wear off when you realize a single male only gets 120.00 on food stamps later on...

Realistically, most of the middle east doesn't even give a crap any more if you want to look at the real demographics... with groups like ISIS doing what they are doing clearly half the region within Islam wants this over and knows Hamas will never let that happen, sadly the 10-20% of Islam that is nuts = a larger number of potential trouble makers and yes online posters than there are people in America...

So online... while the other 5 Billion of us go to work, these guys are at it spreading the Jihad.

As far as ATS goes... all it does is distract us from entertaining topics like Ufo's and Bigfoot and relevant issues to our actual lives like Fukushima and Monsanto. So let these guys go on.. the one convert to their cause per 1,000,000 they get in the west will be shot in the head quickly when he/she snaps and in the meantime they are ruining the interwebs...

As far as the actual opinion, count on the vast majority of WOMEN in the entire world to not give a damn about any Islamic propaganda no matter how convincing any further than a forum post, add to that all Jews, The majority of Homosexuals, the upper 2/3rds of Males in Asia, Europe and the Americas who basically appreciate the right to beer and titties more than they give a hoot about who dies in Gaza and that is the BULK of world sentiment, Forums filled with fanatics and Isolated loners might tell a story, leaving your house tells the real story however...

originally posted by: Arpad

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

There is no discussion. Rabid palestinian posters shut down any logical discussion on the topic with a zealous gang mentality.

There's no discussion because one side of the argument just plays the perpetual victim. Then they resort to their buzzwords in a desperate attempt to slander opposition and silence them.

"anti-semite"
"neo-nazi"
and now "terrorist supporter"

How many people actually said they support hamas? Not many, most support Palestinians and there is a agenda to make sure it doesn't come across that way.

Its not so much what people say as what they DONT say, what they REFUSE to say, and who they refuse to hold accountable.......

They want to blame everything on Israel, but then make excuses for Hamas........

There are no excuses for Hamas, Hamas is just as guilty for the deaths and oppression of the Palestenian people as any part of the Israeli gov is......

When people realize this then there can be steps made to make a change.......until then, the rest is polarizing division with no hope of resolution

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

I refuse to play that game any more. I blame the US&British politicians old and new, the Zionist movement and all of nation of Jews who thought they could get away with it and still do. You have been warned!

Hamas is just a reaction to your sneaky evil actions. You have been warned!

on Friday, 28 November 1947, Iraq’s Foreign Minister, Fadel Jamall, included the following statement: Partition imposed against the will of the majority of the people will jeopardize peace and harmony in the Middle East. Not only the uprising of the Arabs of Palestine is to be expected, but the masses in the Arab world cannot be restrained. The Arab-Jewish relationship in the Arab world will greatly deteriorate. There are more Jews in the Arab world outside of Palestine than there are in Palestine. In Iraq alone, we have about one hundred and fifty thousand Jews who share with Moslems and Christians all the advantages of political and economic rights. Harmony prevails among Moslems, Christians and Jews. But any injustice imposed upon the Arabs of Palestine will disturb the harmony among Jews and non-Jews in Iraq; it will breed inter-religious prejudice and hatred.

a reply to: SuperFrog

When American bombers killed more German civilians (than American civilians) in WW II, would you have been one that would have encouraged German bombing of American cities to equal everything out?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

The truth is that Hamas is responsible for no Palestinian deaths

You have got to be kidding me.....I cant believe you actually believe that statement....

If you cant hold Hamas responsible for the attrocities they have brought upon their own people along with the horrible things that the Israeli gov has done, then you are not looking for solution, you are looking to just blame Jews

But that doesn't bother Zionists... It just means you're missing out on a paycheck!

Thank you.....

Thank you for proving my point I stated in other post that anytime you try to hold Hamas accountable for anything you just get called a Zionist and accused of being a Shill.......

Thanks for making your agenda clear to all of us.....

a reply to: Exitt

I refuse to play that game any more. I blame the US&British politicians old and new, the Zionist movement and all of nation of Jews who thought they could get away with it and still do. You have been warned!

Hamas is just a reaction to your sneaky evil actions. You have been warned!

And yet another comes clean, again thank you for finally stating your true intentions and ideas about this.....

More anti-semetic bullcrap.........

This is the root of all the hate........and ignorance......

My actions? what have I done? whats with the threats?

Ok, you caught me.

Uncle Bibi promised me a spot on the Zionist-built, NWO-funded Global Warming Survival Space Station...

All I had to do in exchange was confound the brainless, bleeding-heart pro-Hamas parrots here on ATS. Surprisingly, all it took was a few facts and a capacity for reason.

Seriously, ManBehindTheMask has it right -- rabid anti-Israel opinions far outnumber the other side, despite having the least amount of substantiated evidence.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

More anti-semetic bullcrap.........

This is the root of all the hate........and ignorance......

I am not afraid to be called anti semitic, anti Israel pro Hamas or whatever you people call others who speak the truth.

But do you really think that anti antisemitism is the root of ALL hate? Like hating animals, paedo's or veggies all comes from one and only source? That's profound, i must analyze it moar.

a reply to: Exitt

I am not afraid to be called anti semitic, anti Israel pro Hamas or whatever you people call others who speak the truth.

What you view as truth , doesnt actually make it truth......

But do you really think that anti antisemitism is the root of ALL hate? Like hating animals, paedo's or veggies all comes from one and only source? That's profound, i must analyze it moar.

This makes no sense.........

Point is you and others refuse to hold Hamas responsible for their role in this......for what they do to the Palestenian people.......

Thats not objective........not one bit...........and when you arent being objective, youre just looking for a reason to hate........

This discussion with you, is apparently over.........as you have already stated your cause, and refuse reasonable discussion on it....

Good luck to you