Do you think you are free?

a reply to: donhuangenaro
Create your own chains much?
How exactly is your alleged slavery manifested?

originally posted by: grainofsand
Perceptions of freedom are relative of course, but I have to admit that illegally paying Cambodian border guards US$50 cash to enter/leave their country has been more chilled out to me than every story I've heard from anyone who has had dealings with US port officials or police.
I would prefer to cross a few borders with cash replacing a visa than try legally entering the US as a citizen from a country you apparently regard as friends. Maybe it is just unlucky news reporting but from everything I read on ATS I wouldn't wanna be arrested in the US.
Yep, I prefer my 'freedom' in the UK.

Thats one of the few things im dreading if my US trip goes ahead. Apart from florida NY and chicargo the TSA and border control were horrid.

Sure let illegals flood in but terrorise the legal travellers from allied rich western countrys......makes so much sense.

a reply to: crazyewok
It certainly doesn't encourage me into spending my GBP£'s in the US any time soon.
I have family in Canada so very much intend to spend a few months there one day, perhaps get to the land border and 'see' the US from the safe side of the fence, but that's it. I've 'seen' China in the same sense when I was in Laos and decided to visit the border for that reason.
Even Laos border guards are pretty chilled out with a then standard charge of US$5 for every day you overstayed the 30 day travel visa. No moodiness, no aggression, just a friendly transaction - which probably went in the guards pockets but hey, I'd prefer to be fleeced of my money than stripped, beaten, shouted at, then locked up.

Yep, from pretty much everything I read from US members on ATS it appears that their 'freedom' is much worse than ours in the UK. Hell, any country that fines it's citizens for crossing a street in the 'wrong' place, even if it is safe, is clearly much more tyrannical than where I live.
Perhaps it's no wonder that so many US members do not feel free. I certainly don't want to spend my money there any time soon.

a reply to: grainofsand
Too late to edit my last post so please excuse a cheeky 'reply to myself' in the thread.

When I eventually visit Canada and get to some remote break in the trees that is the border with the US, I will cross it, if only just half a metre for a second...just to know I did it.
You can flame me about how I'll be crying if I get shot/arrested or whatever, and I may cry about the pain of being shot or whatever, but you'll never hear me bitching about any consequences of my actions when I've made the choice under a framework I am already aware of. That is my 'freedom', pseudo-complying where it suits me

We can create as many chains in our minds as we can think of, but I am happy dealing with my current perception of freedom as a UK national, and I prefer it to a Mad-Max style gang law society any day. Someone or group is always alpha in every situation...Historical Native American, Amazon tribe, developed nation, whatever, in 'real' life it can often be local gangs who rule neighbourhoods which police rarely visit...someone or group is always in charge.

a reply to: johnb

No not in the least bit.

We definitely are not free in the true sense of the word.

a reply to: mblahnikluver
What is the true sense of the word in your opinion then?
There is nothing I feel the need to fight for here in the UK except keeping our arses out of foreign wars, perhaps you are in the US, and I imagine you would of course feel oppressed with the pointless legislation and enforcement of it that I read about from US member on ATS.
Hell, there is even a forum dedicated to it.

...and US members have called me a peasant worker of the crown before now, lol...if it wasn't so tragic for you guys with the police brutality and such like. I wish you and all other oppressed people in the world well.

a reply to: johnb

1: Why would anyone want to walk around naked anyways? You should get in trouble for that. Kids could be around and see you.
2: I see people cooking and grilling outside all the time.
3: Homeless people seem to have no problem building shelters and being left alone. It is all in where you do it.
4: I do this often, never had a problem. I do watch to make sure no kids are present if I do though.

Our freedom stops where other's freedom starts.

Some stupid humans go to far, hence, they make laws to protect stupid people from themselves.
Then, everyone is stuck with laws for stupids.

Welcome to stupidland, where everyone is as free as the next stupid person.

a reply to: johnb
I just re-read your OP and I suggest moving to the SW coast of our island, it's much more chilled here, and aside fom building a house wherever you want without planning permission all the rest of it goes within reason.

...I've a few friends living in house-like caravans on land they own with no trouble, the laws just stop building permanent structures without community/council planning agreement first. I'm happy with that.

a reply to: johnb

Freedom is an Illusion Unless you Live on Another Planet that happens to have NO Human Beings on it........

No. Freedom is an illusion. No one is free.

a reply to: Restricted

You Sir , are WISE .

Freedom has different perspectives....

Some people see the freedom like you:walking naked,building shelters and so on...
Other see freedom like this:the freedom to choose your bride,the freedom for opinions,the freedom for political and religious views and so on.
The reason why you get arrested or you get bill for walking naked for example is that because the other see you weird,and beeing "weird" in some countries is illegal.

a reply to: PaulTheDuke
Regardless of perspectives there is not a single society in existence today or in history where someone or some group is not 'the leader'
Now, that could be through democratic election or through fear of force, but even a group of friends will have an alpha male and female recognised somewhere by the rest of the group. Why does anyone think any society anywhere will be any different?

I'd love to know who these utopian societies are where nobody answers to somebody else.
Ah, that's right, it is a ridiculous imagined society which has never existed.
If anyone is crying about not being alpha in the government controlled US or EU then they will probably cry as much about not being alpha in a society which is akin to Mad Max films.
I know which I prefer, call me a pseudo-conforming-sheep...bah!

a reply to: grainofsand

The Leader is just an illusion.Even in this days,people see presidents as beeing the absolute leader of a country,despite the fact that he only represents the country and to accept laws.
It is our instinct to live in groups and to somehow choose a leader to represent our group and in those groups there are also some strict laws.

In my opinion,as an "evolved" species like us,we no longer need a leader in our group,but we need some laws to respect and the freedom to opinions and ideas should be the main political ideology in order to create an almost perfect society where everyone would be happy....
Just saying..

a reply to: PaulTheDuke
Is that what you'll be saying to some gang leader if governmental/societal collapse ever happens?
Good luck with that, but I would say you are in denial of something which is rather obvious.
And so is the OP.

a reply to: grainofsand

For me,individual skills are better then collective skills.
For example I can tell you that even in school,I made projects and homeworks much more better when I did them alone,not in groups

If a governmental/society collapse ever happens i won't beg for help to some gang leaders.
Those gangsters and their crimes are based on instincts and the freedom to opinion in those gangs is ignored.

a reply to: PaulTheDuke
Who said anything about 'begging for help from gangsters?'
I was just pointing out that your utopian thoughts won't wash with a gangster with a crossbow to your head.
Someone or group is always in control...the only thing that will ever change is your own alpha status in the particular group/s you happen to be involved with.

a reply to: grainofsand

For me,individual skills are better then collective skills.

What is so hard to understand that ? This is a solid opinion that you won't change it and I say that again: I HATE GROUPS.

I was just pointing out that your utopian thoughts won't wash with a gangster with a crossbow to your head.

You pointed 2 different opinions which doesn't have any connection between it.
This "what if it happens problem" just makes us overthink and it doesn't result in almost anything.
This conversation is offtopic and this has to end now

Have a nice day or good night !