SaskPower ordered to remove all 105,000 smart meters in the province

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posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: NiZZiM
These people can tell what type of electronics you use and when you do!


Smart meters can't do that.


A person coming on your property to look at your meter is pittance compared to a system with no oversight logging your habits and usage.


The system doesn't do that.


I don't understand why it's too hard for them to just use the old meter and simply attach a device that reads the usage and sends it over a telephone line, since those are rarely used these days.


How is that any different than wirelessly transmitting the data to the power company?


They don't need to analyze what I'm doing or any other customer is doing at home in private.


Again, they don't do that.




posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 04:06 PM
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ok, links.....here's the results of my research...

Here's an article, showing how, yes they can know what you're using, based on smart meter data...


Here's another article


it didn't take me anywhere near as long as i thought it would to dig these up....and there's even more out there....

so there's that.....AND the fact that they communicate without any kind of encryption....so i mean, might it be possible for someone who really wanted to, to go wardriving, settle on a block, start accessing smart meters, and turning people off, just to screw with them?

it doesn't seem to me that it's really worth the risks, just so a corporation can help their bottom line by firing a bunch of people...because...ya' know, there's just so many jobs out there for them to get after they get sacked by the utility company..
edit on 8-4-2014 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: Daedalus

Both articles show that the information is general: They don't know what type of equipment you are using. Specifically that it's a 52 inch Sony TV, or that it's a Kenmore model number XXXXX range, etc.

So someone might know that you have a TV....or a stove.....or a computer....or many other things commonly found in just about every house hold.

I do not see where it's really going to hurt you for others to know that, considering that anyone could simply guess that you have those things, without stepping foot into your place, or seeing data from a meter.

Where I see a problem is someone using the data to determine if you're home or not, and use that information to break in and rob you.

But then there are at least another half dozen ways for people to know that even if you had a regular old meter that has to be read by a person.

If it bothers you that much, go as green as you can. Switch to natural gas for cooking if you can, and for heating your place and water. Get solar panels installed.

If you're not allowed those things because of where you live: move.

But even if you do all those things: people will be able to tell when you're not home or not. It's been done for many decades now. Case a place and watch. Go around in the neighborhood pretending to take a fake survey, asking people questions about who goes on vacations, and when.

As for finding out what you own: there are many ways for the government to do that. Anything from watching your credit card or bank card purchases, to them entering your home when you're not there (I'd say that was against the law, but then......this is the government, right?).



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: Daedalus

Your first article sites a paper about giving the consumer more information. It seems that information was entirely dependent on the consumer providing the data on what they turned on/off and monitoring their power. As for your second article, the end is telling:

Despite the ongoing chorus against smart meters and the possibility for intrusion, some experts say that it is nothing but mass hysteria.

“Privacy zealots obsess over something that wouldn’t concern a rational person,” Roger Pilon, director of the Cato Institute’s Center for Constitutional Studies, said to FoxNews.com. “It’s the kind of mass hysteria we’ve seen in other eras for other issues.”

“The NSA has better things to do than monitor our A/C use.”


I'm learning some stuff with this discussion and I'm definitely going to have to ask if I can get a smart meter installed if I don't already have one. It's incredibly useful information and I'm not opposed to saving some money.



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 05:50 PM
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originally posted by: links234
Your first article sites a paper about giving the consumer more information. It seems that information was entirely dependent on the consumer providing the data on what they turned on/off and monitoring their power.


i'm not seeing that anywhere....could you maybe provide a quotation?

as to your quotation from the article i posted....they use terms like "privacy zealots", to marginalize people who disagree with them, to make them sound crazy.....when, in fact, people like that consider anyone concerned with their privacy to be a "privacy zealots"....kinda like those of us who don't appreciate NSA spying, or corporations giving information about us to the government....that kind of thing....



I'm learning some stuff with this discussion and I'm definitely going to have to ask if I can get a smart meter installed if I don't already have one. It's incredibly useful information and I'm not opposed to saving some money.


if they don't know what you're using, and it's all paranoia, how does it help you?

you can't have it both way, man...
edit on 8-4-2014 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 05:57 PM
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a reply to: eriktheawful

what i'm saying is that maybe they don't know what model of TV, or washer you're using, but they'll know that you're watching TV, or using your washer...and then there's the articles about appliances being equipped with chips that communicate with a smart meter, over the house electrical lines...of course, it's not really a thing right now(i believe it's got a very limited release at the moment), but in a few years, it will be the norm, and then instead of having to guess, based on electronic signatures, they'll have the appliances talking directly to the meter, and there will be no question as to what you're using, and when, and for how long....

it's currently at the point where it can be discerned, pretty well, what you're using(broadly), and when, and for how long....so between cell tracking, and the information from a smart meter, they can get a pretty good idea of where you go, and what you do when you're home....governments seem to want to know what you do all the time anyway, even though it's none of their business. planting bugs is illegal, but mining smart meter data isn't...

so between cell tracking, smart meter data, social media, and a few other sources, they can put together a pretty comprehensive, and complete profile on a person....allowing them to know WAY more about an individual, than they have any business knowing....if that doesn't bother you (and i mean that generically, not you, specifically), then there's something wrong with you...



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 06:13 PM
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a reply to: links234
Alot of people end up paying more after a smart meter has been installed..go ahead.



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 06:27 PM
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a reply to: Daedalus

The first article was citing this paper. The Fox article was quoting the right-wing Cato Institute, hardly a big-government spy advocate.


if they don't know what you're using, and it's all paranoia, how does it help you?


Because I know what I'm using. Based on what the above paper is talking about I can monitor the energy I'm using with a smart meter and how much it's costing me, in real-time. When I turn on an appliance I can open a computer/smartphone application and see how much energy that device is using based on the increase in power. However, that's years away from coming to fruition for the average consumer. Right now, we're still in the realm of simple monitoring and providing the data on a month-by-month basis.

Hypothetically speaking, with this data you could set an alert on your phone to tell you if you're spending too much on power per hour. Flip on too many lights? You get an alert saying you're using X amount of energy costing you X amount of money right now. Mind you, these would be alerts that you set up yourself. Tell the app you don't want to spend more than $0.75/hour on energy and if you leave an appliance on or if you turn on too many things at once the app can warn you. This is how I can see it being useful.

I don't exactly understand your rationale for being opposed to this beyond the power company knowing what you turn on and when. You turned on a light when it got dark? Who would've guessed that was going to happen?!



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 07:59 PM
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a reply to: Daedalus

I don't own a cell phone.

I drive a very old junker.

Most of my purchases are in cash.

I can turn my TV on and walk away doing something else, so they'd be wrong about me watching TV (they'd be wrong anyways, because the old flat screen TV is now my youngest son's computer monitor.....love to see them figure that one out.).

The computers in the house (there are more than one) stay on most of the time.

I live out here in the woods, and if I wanted to and had the money, I could cut myself from the grid and generate my own power.

During the winter, they'd most likely think we were freezing to death....because I use my fire places and wood burning stoves to stay warm.

Now the first 3 things up there are:

No cell, because when I leave my house, I don't want people pestering me on the phone. If I'm up from my computer, I'm UNPLUGGED and do not need, nor want the internet when I'm out and about (I'm old at 47 I guess. Got along just fine before cell phones and smart phones became the rage).

I drive a junker, because I don't want to go into debt with a new car. I don't use GPS because......I know how to read a printed map and use road signs (I don't need some electronic device telling me when to turn right).

I make a lot of cash purchases, because that's what I have with me. Cash. I have only a certain amount in my wallet, so I do not go out and spend all my money. I leave the money in the bank so I can save. The cards are for when I have to do a online purchase.

If the government really wanted to know what I was doing, then they'd know, smart meter or not.

Do I trust the government? When I was young, yes. When I was in the US Navy, yes. But now that I'm a lot older, and a bit wiser.....no. Not 100%

Do I think the government is out to get me?

I'll tell you what I used to tell younger sailors that would think that:

"Dude. If they were out to get you, it would be over before you could blink."



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 08:12 PM
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I don't understand how smart meters are spying. My electric company saves money by doing an estemated bill every other month. The amount they guess my bill would be is based off of previous occupants.

I have no idea how anyone could use what they say is normal for this house. My actual bill is less than a third of my estamated bill. A smart reader would save me lots of frustration.



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 08:57 PM
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a reply to: Daedalus

The first article references another paper, one that I am very familiar with. Like I said earlier, its all about consumption, not what is being used. Yes, certain appliances have certain "waveshapes" associated with them, so you could say, hey there is an inductive load turned on here, it could be device a, b, or c. What they are looking for is people who have high usage, use during peak time, etc.

Second, while not encypted by the basic sense of the word, they are coded and you need to understand the language the meter uses to understand. There is no personal data associated with it. Each meter shop will have a program that is used universally, they donwload said program to meter, add a locator ID, test the meter and send it off. The transmission that comes back contains the locator id, which is then referenced internally to the actual user information.

Somebody mentioned about after a smart meter is installed, their bill goes up. Thats possible in some instances, however if you are sure, call the utility and have them come test the meter. The reason some people see an increase is when changing out an old electromechanical that is probably worn down over years, and only around 2% accurate with a new meter that is 0.5% accurate, there is going to be a difference. Most meters I have seen that report incorrectly are in industrial/commercial installations and that is due to the CT's in the circuit being backwards, overburdened, or cross phased. Or the harmonics/load is so bad the meter uses the wrong algorithm to calculate power consumption. But once again thats non-residential. About the only things that would cause a smart meter to incorrectly report a residential load would be if the meter is programmed wrong( somebody assigned the wrong wiring configuration to it and it thinks its a 4 wire wye instead of a split phase 240 system). A damaged meter would read inaccurately, or one that has been tampered with.

On the subject of the main part of this thread, the fires, I found several other instances of this particular meter being pulled due to fire. According to a press release by the manufacture they said over voltage was to blame in part of the fires. Which means the meters were not designed right, have incorrect MOV's, or do not have MOV's at all.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:43 PM
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a reply to: links234

ok, so maybe there are those among us who have an I.Q. over "toothpaste", and we don't NEED a thing to tell us that we're using a lot of power, because we already know.....maybe we don't WANT a smart meter....honestly, it should be optional.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: eriktheawful

alright, you might be a little harder to profile than most...confusing power usage paterns, no cell to track movements..you probably still have a footprint on the net, but maybe a bit less than most people....

i'm not saying that they're out to get any one of us specifically....what i'm saying is that, and this is public knowledge, the federal government is interested in knowing everything about it's citizens....having files on every one of us, and then being able to turn those files into a searchable database..that's the point of the NSA saving our emails, listening to our phone calls, reading our tweets, facebook posts, and forum posts...that's why they have the ability to track our phones, backdoor in, and read our texts, look at whatever is on our phones, etc, etc, etc.....they want to know everything about us...

all i've said is that it IS possible...i don't know that they("they" being the nosy voyeur perverts in the federal government) are for a fact using smart meters to collect that data, all i've said is that it's possible, and why take the risk? especially with the possibility existing of it being manipulated by an unauthorized person, or catching fire....i mean seriously, it just seems dodgy as hell, and not at all worth it..



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:51 PM
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a reply to: Iamthatbish

um..go back and read...



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 01:57 PM
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a reply to: Caver78

I can't comlain very much about the smart meter on my house.
It's the only place where we can get a cell signal.
Yea, no joke! Two miles from my house to a tower and no signal.



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 02:02 PM
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originally posted by: tnhiker
The first article references another paper, one that I am very familiar with. Like I said earlier, its all about consumption, not what is being used. Yes, certain appliances have certain "waveshapes" associated with them, so you could say, hey there is an inductive load turned on here, it could be device a, b, or c. What they are looking for is people who have high usage, use during peak time, etc.


ok, most of that is stuff i already said, only you used fancier words....

i understand that it can help determine power usage during peak time, but again, it also can be used to help make a profile....and as i mentioned before, what about a few years from now, when appliances are equipped to talk directly to the smart meter? then FOR SURE there will be detailed data on what is used, when, and for how long...that information could be VERY valuable..



Second, while not encypted by the basic sense of the word, they are coded and you need to understand the language the meter uses to understand. There is no personal data associated with it. Each meter shop will have a program that is used universally, they donwload said program to meter, add a locator ID, test the meter and send it off. The transmission that comes back contains the locator id, which is then referenced internally to the actual user information.


that's nice....so once you have the means to decipher it, you've got the raw data..yay, power usage info......not that it's worth anything to the casual wardriver....but again, it's broadcasting unencrypted, which means the device can be broken into....from there, if they know what they're doing, they can shut off your power....i mean, printing 200 pages of midget porn on someone's expensive color lazer printer, that they left on an unsecure wireless network is one thing....but cutting off someone's power? that's just screwed up, and shouldn't be able to happen...



Somebody mentioned about after a smart meter is installed, their bill goes up. Thats possible in some instances, however if you are sure, call the utility and have them come test the meter. The reason some people see an increase is when changing out an old electromechanical that is probably worn down over years, and only around 2% accurate with a new meter that is 0.5% accurate, there is going to be a difference. Most meters I have seen that report incorrectly are in industrial/commercial installations and that is due to the CT's in the circuit being backwards, overburdened, or cross phased. Or the harmonics/load is so bad the meter uses the wrong algorithm to calculate power consumption. But once again thats non-residential. About the only things that would cause a smart meter to incorrectly report a residential load would be if the meter is programmed wrong( somebody assigned the wrong wiring configuration to it and it thinks its a 4 wire wye instead of a split phase 240 system). A damaged meter would read inaccurately, or one that has been tampered with.


OR, the electric company is charging you for the meter.....you don't think they'd absorb the cost of the "upgrade" themselves, do you? no....they require you to have this stupid thing, and then make you pay for it.....kinda like how our tax dollars go to funding the same programs that actively spy on us...kinda sick....like making you dig your own grave, with a shovel you paid for, before they put a bullet in your head that you paid for, from a gun you paid for....



On the subject of the main part of this thread, the fires, I found several other instances of this particular meter being pulled due to fire. According to a press release by the manufacture they said over voltage was to blame in part of the fires. Which means the meters were not designed right, have incorrect MOV's, or do not have MOV's at all.


so then it's a design, or QC issue?
edit on 8-5-2014 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: Daedalus

Actually I have a HUGE footprint on the internet. Check out my signature.

Personally I look at it like this:

Am I paranoid? Or am I not paranoid? Or am I not paranoid enough?

No doubt that governments want to know everything about their citizens. It's the nature of the beast. As long as there has been a person or a group of persons that are in charge of a larger group of people, they will always do this. Sometimes it's extreme, sometimes it's not as extreme, but then seems to grow into it.

History has shown us that pretty much any type of government seems to continue to grow and get bigger, and bigger, and when it does, it wants more control, which means needing more and more information to keep tabs on people.

The former USSR and China are great examples of seeing that in action when they both started up with their communistic governments and then quickly evolved into police states.

So it boils down to how the individual wants to live their life (if possible...if you live in a country that you don't not have much choice, you live it the way the state wants you to live it).

Here in the US, and especially in the SE part of it, in the state I live in, I enjoy quite a bit of freedom. No one is really trying to take anything from me (yet), and no one is trying to keep me from living the way I want (yet. Like growing my own food, having my own eggs, making my own beer, collecting rain water just fine, etc, etc).

Does that make me trust the Government? Nope. Not really. I take any politicians promise with a grain of salt. Life here where I live is very laid back, easy going and day by day is pleasant (of course I'm in the country, not some city either).

So I don't have a lot to be paranoid about.

On the other hand, it is good to be paranoid about your government. History shows us over and over that you can't really trust governments.

But how paranoids should someone be?

For some, I guess being as paranoid as you can get, thinking the government is trying to find everything they can about you, what you do, how you do it, feels right.

For others, like me, I've not had a reason to feel that way, so to me, that feels like being too paranoid.

But that's me and how I feel. Doesn't make me right and someone else wrong.

So really, if it makes you (and others) feel better to not have technology that is suppose to help you and the power company, because you're worried about being spied on, then I guess it makes you feel better.

But then.....you do have a lot of us that would like better technology that helps us, helps our standard of living, and can help us save money.

So people will disagree about it. Some will be upset about it.

I don't have an answer for it. No matter what a government does, people will always thing that they are out to get them or spy on them.

edit on 5-8-2014 by eriktheawful because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2014 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: eriktheawful

a star for you.

i appreciate what you're saying, i understand completely, and i respect your view of things...you have a far different perspective..

i'll not argue it with you any further.



posted on Aug, 6 2014 @ 09:33 AM
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it's not really a matter of being paranoid about passive information collection, there are better ways to achieve the energy savings by the homeowner being proactive without the utility collecting your data.

New thermostat
electrical appliances on power strips
installing led light bulbs
insulating your hot water tank

Yes the new smart meters cut costs for the utility, but so does a "user" by being proactive and taking charge of how they chose to use the product.( electricity in this case) Too much of our information is collected without any rigid controls on how the data is used.

Between grocery reward cards, e-z-pass, camera's at traffic signals, you name it we are probably the most monitored population in history! At some point it behooves us to just stand up and say "I'm not your lab-rat"!!

Some people are comfortable with these trade off's but there should be a choice. It really doesn't have to be a mandated or else type situation.






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