SaskPower ordered to remove all 105,000 smart meters in the province

a reply to: eriktheawful

i don't think the argument he's trying to make is that the power company gives a toss when an individual turns on their kettle..i think the argument is something to do with possibly, the government wanting that kind of mundane information about citizens... -shrug-

a reply to: Daedalus

Exactly! Some here are probably too young to remember when garage door openers were the "latest thing". It took thieves about a minute and a half to figure out they were keyed to certain frequencies and then drive around opening your garage door and having a field day.

Hacking the system on the smart meters surely couldn't be rocket science. No one needs that level of personal knowledge about private citizens. It may not be much to you, however ,JMO, any is too much for my taste.

originally posted by: links234
a reply to: VoidHawk

Oh my god! You're right! How dare they provide me with accurate information on my power usage so that I can then use that information to save myself money each month!

If you're worried about saving money you could buy "green" products" or unplug/turn off whatever after you use it.

Why do you require them to tell you how to save money?

a reply to: Caver78

That may be true.

But then, the power company is (in most places) a private company who's services you pay for. You either agree to the contract for the services they provide and how they provide it (and there will be a clause that states that), or you simply do not retain their services.....

And if they are the ONLY ones that provide that service in your area.....

As with everything new that is invented, there will always be upsides and downsides.

Knowing what I do about electronics, I could go to Radio Shack and get the parts I need to build a receiver and listen in to people's cordless phones (the land line ones), and in fact, I had a fellow co-worker that used to do just that, so he could listen in to his wife's phone convos.

With the right equipment, and knowledge, this can be done with cell phones (hmmmm.....NSA anyone?)

What are you using right now to post here on ATS? Is it "Hack Proof"? Is it something that someone down the road won't figure out a way to "hack" ?

I have a smart meter. And it's been installed for a long time now. I've never had problems with it.

What I used to have a problem with was: the meter guy trampling all over my property to come read the meter, making my dogs go ballistic.

originally posted by: Caver78
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

Your missing the point. Having the ability to turn off your utility without due process is over reach. I'm not saying people who gauge the utility companies aren't scum, but the contract you normally have with a power company doesn't include a clause where if you are a customer in good standing they can just flip a switch and cut you off.

Really?

The rules for disconnection (eg these in California) apply regardless of the nature of the disconnection, and disconnections aren't something new that is going to happen with smart meters!!

Various places have various rules - but they make no distinction between "remote" and physical disconnection AFAIK.

Be interested in seeing evidence to the contrary.

a reply to: Tucket

I'm not worried about it. I do buy lots of 'green' products. I do like information, particularly about myself, and I like to see how my house is doing through the data that can be generated from smart devices.

I live in a state with a publicly owned utility. I'm not terribly concerned with what they do with the metadata generated by my neighborhood.

The point is, it's not nefarious. It's very rarely nefarious. This belief that people are out to get you is borderline schizophrenia. The position the OP took was kind of silly, particularly when the real reason the smart meters were being removed had absolutely nothing to do with privacy, but with safety.

We've even got some Agenda 21 nonsense in the thread. It's great.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: Caver78

That may be true.

But then, the power company is (in most places) a private company who's services you pay for. You either agree to the contract for the services they provide and how they provide it (and there will be a clause that states that), or you simply do not retain their services.....

well, for something like electricity, you could produce your own...wind, solar, etc...but then, in some places, they say you can't be self-sufficient...you MUST buy your power, from the available utility companies...so i mean, when that kind of thing happens, it makes you wonder...or at least, it makes me wonder....just a little...

a reply to: links234

i think you're missing the point...or maybe you're so short-sighted, and careless, that it simply doesn't concern you...but it all comes down to this...

if they CAN collect this kind of data, and they DO collect this kind of data, then one should very much care what it's being used for, and furthermore, what business is it of the power company what i'm using, and when i'm using it, outside of the impact it has on the grid?

it's not that they're after "me"..it's a matter of, well, they know this stuff, and it's none of their business......privacy is one of those things that's kinda important, ya' know?

OH I hope BC follows and swiftly!

a reply to: Daedalus

That's just it though, we know what they're using it for. They're using it to optimize the amount of power is output to match the rate of power we consume.

This non-sense that, somehow, these devices will know exactly what piece of equipment you're using and when you're using it needs to stop. There's no possible way that anyone can know if you're using a stove or a dryer through your power consumption alone. If you can show me any evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. 'Smart' meters are just smart enough to track your power consumption and relay that data to your power company. It's not to tell the power company that you just turned on your 52" Samsung flatscreen LCD HDTV to watch Game of Thrones.

Maybe, maybe, you could pinpoint which device is being turned on/off so long as you know exactly the power consumption in a particular home on that particular product combined with all the other products in the home, but that requires an intricate knowledge of the baseline consumption of the home when there's no power being consumed at all. There could be faulty wiring or improper grounding or any number of factors that are not tracked by smart meters.

a reply to: links234

two things:

firstly, "we" (and by "we", i mean you) don't know anything..."we" ASSUME we know what data it's collecting, and what it's being used for....fact is, "we" DON'T actually know...

secondly, if smart meters are needed to prevent grid overloads, how did we do it BEFORE they were invented, and are they really worth it? meaning are they providing an actual benefit?

...i'll get back to you on that evidence thing....it's gonna take some research, and i'm busy at the moment..

Two members of congress (Jerry McNerney, D- Stockton, CA and Matt Cartwright, D- PA) have introduced a congressional bill (HR 2685) that would Smart Gridapparently require all electricity providers (including rural cooperatives and municipal utilities) to join the ‘smart’ grid and install ‘smart’ meters.

In addition the bill would require appliances with the Energy Star label to include wireless transmitters that cannot be turned off, in order to communicate (and presumably cough up your private data and respond to orders from Big Brother Smart Grid to switch you off at a moment’s notice, as happened to dozens of people in Northern California recently when their not-so-smart-AC program cut off their air conditioning at the height of the recent heat wave.)

The bill would also establish a “smart grid information center” that would presumably create pro-smart grid propaganda at the taxpayer’s expense. Sounds like the marriage between industry and government is about to be consummated- unless you take action and restrict this perverse love affair.

"Sm art Grid Advancement Act" Introduced in US Congress

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: links234

two things:

firstly, "we" (and by "we", i mean you) don't know anything..."we" ASSUME we know what data it's collecting, and what it's being used for....fact is, "we" DON'T actually know...

secondly, if smart meters are needed to prevent grid overloads, how did we do it BEFORE they were invented, and are they really worth it? meaning are they providing an actual benefit?

...i'll get back to you on that evidence thing....it's gonna take some research, and i'm busy at the moment..

Okay, first: I've worked for and with power companies, so, YES I DO know.

Second, I explained how they did things before with this post right here, you might want to go read it again, but basically it was up to humans watching meters at power generating stations.

Humans, who are slow to act and react. Humans who expect a salary for that, and benefits, and vacation time, sick days, etc, etc, etc.

Computers don't need those things.

Prior to smart meters being installed where I live, we used to get blown transformers all the time, power surges and brown outs.

And I live out in the country!

I lost count of how many times I had to sit around in the dark, or the cold, or the sweltering heat, waiting for up to two hours for that transformer to be located and replaced.

Since the meter replacement and system upgrade? I can count on one hand how many times, and those times have always been due to major events: severe thunderstorms, high winds and ice storms.

They system has absolutely know way of knowing what it is you turned on in your house. The current surge and power consumption of any device in your house, can possible match a dozen other items in your house that draws current.

You could have the same current surge and power consumption between your electric dryer and when your outside AC unit turns on. Which one was it? The dryer? Or the AC unit?
Don't believe me? All electrical devices have name plate data that shows what those things are. Take a look and see how many come close to each other.

Was it the hair dryer that was turned on? Or was it the microwave oven?

Add the fact that as your equipment and appliances get older and used more (or less), their power consumption can change. electronic components and wires resistance and impedance can change with time....and it's never at a constant rate, because too many things contribute to that. There is no way to know.

What these systems can tell is: Youve got a HUGE power demand, and if you and enough of your neighbors are demanding that power, the system can make sure that enough power is available so that the grid is not damage trying to provide that power that is not there. It hurts their gird, and it can hurt all of your equipment in your house.

They do NOT know that the reason your demand is so high is because you have the heat running, the dishwasher running, you're doing laundry and all while trying to bake a turkey in the oven of an electrical stove.

They only way they could know that is: they've put cameras in your house.

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

How is what he said rubbish? That's a very valid concern. These people can tell what type of electronics you use and when you do! And you better bet a corporation will not let that data go to waste. A person coming on your property to look at your meter is pittance compared to a system with no oversight logging your habits and usage. The CIA even said that soon enough your own appliances will be spying on you!

I don't understand why it's too hard for them to just use the old meter and simply attach a device that reads the usage and sends it over a telephone line, since those are rarely used these days. They don't need to analyze what I'm doing or any other customer is doing at home in private. Screw the idea that they need that info to grow and be more efficient. I'll put solar panels and batteries on my house before they ever have a chance to stick me with one of those "spy meters" or how about "spontaneously combust meters"?

if you've ever worked for a utility that governs power, you'd know there's no one there who has the time to spy or monitoring people activities through a smart meter.

Big data's promise to govern power consumption without all those field crews is what they're after, and they're being pushed to do it as a way to be sustainable, and to monitor overall power consumption so they can find even more ways to be efficient on how power is distributed.

They don't care what time you operate your kettles in the morning, they care about their butts on the smart meter project and how well it works and their reports to the board on success & cost savings. They go home to their own houses being monitored by the same system.

The RF health issue is probably correct, but its not the only source in any given house.

Not only is it a matter of Life and Death and Health, but we who are so blessed as to be betrayed and handed over to the American Fortis by our toadstool, horse dropping goverment, have 300 dollar a month electric in the summer, and they blame it on our appliances, and we're not replacing them and if we did, it would be a never ending supply of 200 dollar second hand ones from the one store that delivers free to our area, so they can take a hike in a spiked rolling donought, because I want them all gone for their crimes against humanity. We have people screaming in papers locally, in neighboring towns, we have elderly getting meals on wheels with the power cut off. And this evil Leviathin/Demon Fortis company (and I;m not joking, they would literally have to be run by some well known Dark Wings of some kind of stature in order for our Government to hand over to foreigners our money probably worth billions to them. No one just gives a foreign company that kind of prize unless they';re really Big Demons!!!) raises the price.

Well GET RID OF THE SMART METERS AND WE WANT OUR BCHYDRO BACK ASAP YOU VILLAINOUS TREANOUS PIECES OF CRAPOLA.

In addition, we're going to be spending time and money spreading around ways for everyone to cut their electrical, not by tightening their belt scarsity, but little wind socks and homemade solar planels and stirling engines, parabolic mirrors, that kind of thing.

To our premiers who may be listening: FOLLOW SUIT AND GET RID OF FORTIS, BECAUSE WE'RE REALLY" MAD!!!!! I don't just want them gone now, I want you, the BC government, and Fortis, out of your own private income, to be forced to re-pay all the money you have stolen from the poor and elderly and fixed incomes, and even from the middle class, pay it all back, and for anyone that has suffered and had power cut off, pay damage to them for what they've gone through.

That is what I will settle for, your personal life long, and family's life long bankruptcy and never having a pot to piss in for you guys.

A> Utilities do not what you are using or when you are using it unless it has a very specific waveshape, then they have to guess between multiple items that look like that. You can guess based on load profiling and increase in load what is going on, but not with much level of accuracy.

B> What are they doing with that information? Deleting the vast majority of it. They have no way to record all that information other than just what they absolute need. It's a huge gap between transmit and actually give a damn about. Granted there are analysis companies who have the resources and technologies that are looking to make a buck with this huge, huge amount of data, but it's off in the future.

C> Transmits every second is bull. At the most, absolute most is every 15 minutes. Most are far less than that. It is literally about 2 seconds of transmission time, its harmless unless you are laying your head on the dang thing and don't move for nearly a year, then you may, MAY have enough to account for one cross country flight.

D> Why are they needed now vs. even 5 years ago? Because the load has dramatically increased, while generation is at a stand still or even being forced to reduce output to meet with various EPA and other requirements. The introduction of CFL's and LED's, LED TV's, Plasma TV's etc has created more problems than they solved. Basic EE here but assume you have a billable load of 25kW/hrs. But because you have power supplies, tv's, CFL's etc, you have a bad power factor and consume in the same period 30kVA/hrs of power. The utility is basically having to generate 30kVa worth of power, and is only billing the customer for 25kW. Thats why commercial and industrial facilities are billed on demand, Time of Use, and get a power factor penalty. Its also why a lot are build on VA instead of W, because it is a more accurate representation of the actual consumption. Residential will probably be going that way eventually.

I get so frustrated at all the smart meter conspiracies. It is baseless, found-less accusations.

I would like to know how or why B.C. Hydro was allowed to bypass the utilities commision regarding a forced billion dollar expenditure on smart meters?..if such an awsome thing why bypass?

a reply to: vonclod

Between the smart meters and actually selling the lower province out to Fortis, except the lower mainland of course. Because if the millions living there were going through what the southern interior is and the kootenays for electric, there would be hell to pay. As it is, the government is banking on they votes from the lower mainland and that the ignore the rest of us who have electric bills that have doubled, tripled, quadrupled for some, elderly with electric bills of over 1000 a month in Osooyos. Its outrageous. And the smart meters seem to be really faulty for at least 1/3 of the households, hiccuping over older appliances, burnt out the breaker box in one woman in Osoyoos and she had to have screaming matches on the phone to Fortis for months, and made them replace the Smart Meter with one that didn't send info back, ie wasn't hackable, and then that had to replaced too, and it took ages to find out that the Smart Meter had messed up her breakers and she had to have the whole thing redone.

ITS OUTRAGEOUS AND THEY ALL OWE ALL OF US IN SPADES. THEY OWE US!!!!!

I want to see Fortis Executives and any in our Government that signed any contracts to take us off our low cost BCHYDRO, paid for by tax dollars, the house we own and built thank you very much, to be: one sued sued sued sued sued for recovery of funds, and to have to pay millions out to those who had their power cut off, HOW DARE YOU GUYS DO THAT TO ANYONES GRANDMOTHER YOU ________ (think in terms of worst word to fill in the blank)?? Then I want them all in JAIL. Fraud, Theft, Treason!


Then there is Penticton, BC. Traitors to the human race, and their city offices needs some major law suits as well. When we moved out of there, 7 years ago or so, we had $80 dollar a month electric, and houses would be just over 100. Comparative to Chilliwack and Fraser Valley just last year. 142 a month, cost average, 4 computers, electric fans, heaters in the sun room, air conditioners, you name it, big house hold.

Well, Penticton raised its bchydro rates to resemble Fortis rates. I don't know how they got away with it at all, but my friend lives in a tiny 2 bedroom house smaller than a mobile home, maybe 700 square feet at the most. She has one computer, 1 game system, AND has to hang her clothes on the clothing line even in the winter, she dare not turn on the dryer. Her electric is 270 a month in the summer. With a couple base board heaters, in January, its way more. She has over 1000, more than her rent, every two months for half the year AND like most is poor, and has to beg borrow money and then borrow food, its unbelievable that these asshats were ever allowed to do this to the people. I am so angry that its almost to the point of wanting to see heads on spikes now. They're harming people in such massive ways, its unbelievable.

Outrageous unbelievable criminal behavior that was somehow agreed upon by the government and Fortis and they're doing this to everyone on purpose, want people freezing to death in Canada and take away their food money, all their money, money for repairs.

Businesses are going to go bankrupt, everywhere because of this. Who can buy anything with these rates?

I was wondering why another friend was telling me they don't use their furnace heat (IN CANADA!) and showed me the electrical heaters they use in the townhouse. Unbeleivable!

What the HELL Is going on. Partly to do with Fortis, and some BCHYDRO towns matching Fortis rates, and partly to do with SMART METERS, which we want gone completely off the face of the earth.

Yes there is only 1 reason to make that kind of expendature against the will of regulatory bodies(I feel the smart meter program would not of happened if it was reviewed beforhand by the utilities commision) and that is more revenue..peak time billing in the next few years is my guess..that is specifically what they are designed for. B.C. Hydro is in the hole for alot of reasons..1 being the fiberal party keeping rates artificially low to win brownie points..on our backs eventually, that being now with the massive rate increases, the IPPs are a scam as well.