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Gays Going straight? Can it happen?

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posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 04:28 PM
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I think the definition of sin may vary with the way you read the Bible and interpret it - taking into account that it's been translated x number of times over the centuries...

I'm sure some people would be able to find evidence in the Bible that God said voting for the Democrats was a sin.




posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:15 PM
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OK this will answer the question of wether the 'translation' has been corrupted in this verse.



1Co 6:9

(ALT) You* know that unrighteous [ones] will not inherit [the] kingdom of God, do you* not? Stop being led astray [fig., being deceived]; neither sexual sinners nor idolaters nor adulterers nor passive partners in male-male sex nor active partners in male-male sex

(ASV) Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

(BBE) Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,

(CEV) Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual

(DRB) Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers:

(EMTV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

(ESV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

(GNB) Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God's Kingdom. Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts

(GNT) ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται

(GNT+) η2228 PRT ουκ3756 PRT-N οιδατε1492 V-RAI-2P οτι3754 CONJ αδικοι94 A-NPM βασιλειαν932 N-ASF θεου2316 N-GSM ου3756 PRT-N κληρονομησουσιν2816 V-FAI-3P μη3361 PRT-N πλανασθε4105 V-PPM-2P ουτε3777 CONJ πορνοι4205 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ ειδωλολατραι1496 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ μοιχοι3432 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ μαλακοι3120 A-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ αρσενοκοιται733 N-NPM

(GNT-TR) η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι ουτε αρσενοκοιται

(GNT-TR+) η2228 PRT ουκ3756 PRT-N οιδατε1492 V-RAI-2P οτι3754 CONJ αδικοι94 A-NPM βασιλειαν932 N-ASF θεου2316 N-GSM ου3756 PRT-N κληρονομησουσιν2816 V-FAI-3P μη3361 PRT-N πλανασθε4105 V-PPM-2P ουτε3777 CONJ πορνοι4205 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ ειδωλολατραι1496 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ μοιχοι3432 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ μαλακοι3120 A-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ αρσενοκοιται733 N-NPM

(GNT-V) η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι TSBβασιλειαν θεου Aβασιλειαν ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι ουτε αρσενοκοιται

(GNT-WH+) η2228 PRT ουκ3756 PRT-N οιδατε1492 V-RAI-2P οτι3754 CONJ αδικοι94 A-NPM θεου2316 N-GSM βασιλειαν932 N-ASF ου3756 PRT-N κληρονομησουσιν2816 V-FAI-3P μη3361 PRT-N πλανασθε4105 V-PPM-2P ουτε3777 CONJ πορνοι4205 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ ειδωλολατραι1496 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ μοιχοι3432 N-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ μαλακοι3120 A-NPM ουτε3777 CONJ αρσενοκοιται733 N-NPM

(GW) Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,

(HCSB) Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

(HNV) Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

(HOT)

(ISV) You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

(KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(KJV+) (2228) Know1492 ye not3756 that3754 the unrighteous94 shall not3756 inherit2816 the kingdom932 of God?2316 Be not3361 deceived:4105 neither3777 fornicators,4205 nor3777 idolaters,1496 nor3777 adulterers,3432 nor3777 effeminate,3120 nor3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,733

(KJVA) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(KJVR) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(LXX)

(MKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,

(MRC) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

(MSG) Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex,

(NAB) Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals

(NASB) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

(New World Translation) What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men,

(NIV) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

(NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

(NLT) Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

(NRSV) Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,

(RSV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,

(RSVA) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,

(TR) h ouk oidate oti adikoi basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin mh planasqe oute pornoi oute eidwlolatrai oute moixoi oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai

(TS98) Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the reign of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither those who whore, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

(Vamvas) Η δεν εξεύρετε ότι οι άδικοι δεν θέλουσι κληρονομήσει την βασιλείαν του Θεού; Μη πλανάσθε ούτε πόρνοι ούτε ειδωλολάτραι ούτε μοιχοί ούτε μαλακοί ούτε αρσενοκοίται

(Vulgate) an nescitis quia iniqui regnum Dei non possidebunt nolite errare neque fornicarii neque idolis servientes neque adulteri

(WEB) Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

(Webster) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(YLT) have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,


1Co 6:9 - Idolatry is here placed between fornication and adultery, because they generally accompanied it. Nor the effeminate - Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship. But how is this? These good - natured, harmless people are ranked with idolaters and sodomites! We may learn hence, that we are never secure from the greatest sins, till we guard against those which are thought the least; nor, indeed, till we think no sin is little, since every one is a step toward hell.

Nor abusers of themselves with mankind; sodomites.

Abusers of themselves with mankind - ἀρσενοκοῖτοι arsenokoitoi. Paederastae or Sodomites. Those who indulged in a vice that was common among all the pagan; see the notes at Rom_1:27.

(NIV) In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Rom 1:27

1Co 6:9 -
The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom - The unrighteous, αδικοι, those who act contrary to right, cannot inherit, for the inheritance is by right. He who is not a child of God has no right to the family inheritance, for that inheritance is for the children. If children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, Rom_8:17. There are here ten classes of transgressors which the apostle excludes from the kingdom of God; and any man who is guilty of any one of the evils mentioned above is thereby excluded from this kingdom, whether it imply the Church of Christ here below, or the state of glory hereafter.
Several of the evils here enumerated will not bear to be particularly explained; they are, however, sufficiently plain of themselves, and show us what abominations were commonly practised among the Corinthians.


These are but a few but it will give you the right idea of what was meant through Gods word.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 10:52 PM
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ed, have you heard the theory, widely accepted in some circles, that sexuality is actually not polar, but a bell curve, with bi-sexuality being the mean? Seems quite plausible to me.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by General Zapata
ed, have you heard the theory, widely accepted in some circles, that sexuality is actually not polar, but a bell curve, with bi-sexuality being the mean? Seems quite plausible to me.


So one would be born only half gay?



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
So one would be born only half gay?


Why half-gay? Why not comfortable with sex from either a male or female partner? A truly enlightened person. I've only known one person who actually perceived themselves to be bisexual and she is now happily married with children. She still finds both sexes attractive, but fell in love with a man.

BTW-You never answered my question - could this therapy change your sexual orientation?

B.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 12:12 AM
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Am I the only one who gets the impression that this obsession of ed's might hint at a personal battle in his own life?

Nobody cares ed, its almost 2005. Theres no reason to be afraid or embarrassed of who consenting adults love. Theres probably still some middle eastern or african countries where it is illegal, if you are that worried about it you can move there.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by edsingerI just present to you a quandary, if a 'gay man' finds Christ in his heart and changes and I mean CHANGES. Then that presents a problem to the 'born gay' theory.


Not really. There are cases of real gay men working to become heterosexual and fathering kids (the Reverend Mel White is one.) HOWEVER, what has happened in the cases I know about is that eventually the person admits they are gay and either chooses a celibate life OR they return to the gay life.

Just as there is no brainwashing technique we could use to turn you gay -- there is no way to turn a gay person heterosexual.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by Kano
Am I the only one who gets the impression that this obsession of ed's might hint at a personal battle in his own life?


Nope, I have wondered about that also, he does seems obsessed with Gays personal lives. Debating with some people does no good because they have preconceived Ideas. What would it take for you to believe that Gays were born that way ed? I doubt if ANYTHING would change your mind because of your beliefs, it always comes back to "its a sin"

Not to get back to the pork argument again but if you are a Jew IT is a sin, if you are a Christan its not. What I am trying to say is a huge Number of people don't have the same beliefs as you do so to them it not a sin. Do you think your Bible quotes means ANYTHING to a Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, etc?

Just like no one can change your mind that it is a sin no one will change theirs that it ain't



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by Kano
Am I the only one who gets the impression that this obsession of ed's might hint at a personal battle in his own life?

Heck no.. I have wondered about that as well as others that I know of via u2u....I am almost to the point of avoiding his posts as he is always downing some group...liberal, gays, anyone against GodBush....it's getting old and they are all beginning to sound alike



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by ByrdJust as there is no brainwashing technique we could use to turn you gay -- there is no way to turn a gay person heterosexual.


And therein lies the problem that the whole question asks, it HAS worked before and yet many still deny or explain away as they are faking it.

Yes it can change ones orientation, it has succeeded in the past.

Well no I do not have a personal problem with it but I can see why y'all ask that. It is a defensive position to accuse one of something when they argue to the validity of an argument that one is on the other side of.

Again, no one seems to answer the question of 'how' one can change ones orientation from one to the other if one is born that way. The bisexual question in itself is a farce because one cant flip a coin in the morning.


I will grant the other side one thing though, I will use a different example though.

If one believes nothing is wrong with stealing from a wal-mart, does it make it a sin and therefore wrong for them to steal? Abortion is another. If the person sees nothing wrong with it then is it wrong?

Well maybe not in their eyes but in society in general it is still wrong. Gays saying that they are Christian and yet not sinful and therefore needing no forgiveness is the classic definition of an oxymoron. They can be Christians no doubt and believe in God, but they deceive themselves when they deny the sin.

When I look at an attractive woman with a nice figure and my mind runs, I have just sinned myself and have just committed a sexually immoral act in need of forgiveness. No different in degree than the gay sin. The difference is I recognize that I fall short and NEED that forgiveness.

[edit on 6-12-2004 by edsinger]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 03:00 PM
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why is it that christianity is always preaching damnation against precisely the things that invoke deep emotions in people? Why deny your humanity? I have to wonder at people who, in this day and age, still limit themselves to the repressive ideas of organized relligion.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 03:06 PM
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Can a hot dog change into a hamburger?!


Why hell no! That's sacrilegious to tailgater's all across America! Some people like to slide their weiners onto an open flame, some people like to mold their meat into a round patty and slam it over a grill....Some like it both ways....But to eat a haburger made out of a pig's asshole?! Or to eat a hot dog made out of angus beef?!

Innuendo aside...The agenda behind this thread is far too obvious (although denied) and despicable...

Why offer a rhetorical question to a group of people who make their lifestyle choices based upon what happens in THEIR lives, then clealry make it known what your opinon is and refuse to accept the plausibility of another's choices?

Offering faith as a guiding hand to aid in a conservative agenda is as dirty as the ground under a Bush....er...bush....



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:33 PM
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So all believe that one is born gay and can not change at all, its genetic then? That is what the prevailing thought is here. But no one seems to accept the possibility that it is not and that someone can have a change of heart. Don slam me for the question as it is a legit one that everyone would rather just slam me for asking it.

Hidden agenda? Not hidden, wide open actually. I am saying that people can change, it is not a genetic thing one is born with, they choose to live this lifestyle for whatever reason. They have that right, but the agenda of having it being declared its own minority and deserving the rights of marriage etc etc etc.

Why if some can change, how then can one be born that way? I was born with brown eyes, I can not change them, but I can wear blue contacts.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by General Zapata
why is it that christianity is always preaching damnation against precisely the things that invoke deep emotions in people? Why deny your humanity? I have to wonder at people who, in this day and age, still limit themselves to the repressive ideas of organized relligion.


Because religion is basically anti-human. It tries to teach you your body is impure, that your desires are sinful. That sex (which living creatures need to take part in, in order to reproduce) is sinful just for humans, because somehow humans are the ones with souls.

What I find funny about these religions nutjobs is that they don't really believe. The majority of them really don't. If they did, and did believe that the end was coming, why would they continue to develop financially? Why would these people that preach the end be preparing for the future?



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
That is what the prevailing thought is here. But no one seems to accept the possibility that it is not and that someone can have a change of heart. Don slam me for the question as it is a legit one that everyone would rather just slam me for asking it.

Perhaps my sarcasm suggested that what you're suggesting here can't happen...

Of course, I agree with you it can....But the title of your thread, the wording of your original post and your reputation as an avid Bush supporter and Christian (correct me if I'm wrong on any of those....not trying to say you're something you're not) all suggest that you WANT gays to change THEIR lifestyle...

Thus the ridicule.....The question is dead on...The material, although collected with a bias intent, is good....It's the motive people are joking about

Pardon for the tangent, and this isn't directed soley at you edsinger, but it's so typical of a conservative to think that everything they hold to be true for themselves must be of such a grandiose scheme that no one will feel left alone under their wings once their nudged into the right direction....

[edit on 12/6/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
[tries to teach you your body is impure, that your desires are sinful.

Sex is not a sin...never has been. If it wasn't to be done, it wouldn't be pleasurable...... it would be used as a tool strictly for procreation.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by Thorfinn SkullsplitterBecause religion is basically anti-human. It tries to teach you your body is impure, that your desires are sinful. That sex (which living creatures need to take part in, in order to reproduce) is sinful just for humans, because somehow humans are the ones with souls.


In no way does the Bibble teach that sex is dirty and sinful unless it is out of wedlock or immoral sex. BIG Difference, heck it tells us to be fruitful and mulitply.



Originally posted by LadyVSex is not a sin...never has been. If it wasn't to be done, it wouldn't be pleasurable...... it would be used as a tool strictly for procreation.


My goodness , we agree!





Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
Of course, I agree with you it can....But the title of your thread, the wording of your original post and your reputation as an avid Bush supporter and Christian (correct me if I'm wrong on any of those....not trying to say you're something you're not) all suggest that you WANT gays to change THEIR lifestyle...
Thus the ridicule.....The question is dead on...The material, although collected with a bias intent, is good....It's the motive people are joking about


Sure I would love to see people change but I am not trying to get them to do so. I just want them to know that it is an option.




[edit on 6-12-2004 by edsinger]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by edsingerIn no way does the Bibble teach that sex is dirty and sinful unless it is out of wedlock or immoral sex. BIG Difference, heck it tells us to be fruitful and mulitply.


Well, apparently it does teach that sex is dirty and that our bodies are impure in some way as you just described. Just the way you present it, it teaches that sex is sinful unless you wed under said religion.

Meaning, it's a bunch of crap...



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Well, apparently it does teach that sex is dirty and that our bodies are impure in some way as you just described. Just the way you present it, it teaches that sex is sinful unless you wed under said religion.

Meaning, it's a bunch of crap...


No the Creator made sex fun and enjoyable, but with consequences if pursued haphazardly.


As for the immoral sex,

Gen 19:4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
Gen 19:5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Gen 19:6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
Gen 19:7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Gen 19:8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
Gen 19:9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
Gen 19:10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.
Gen 19:11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
Gen 19:4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
Gen 19:5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Gen 19:6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
Gen 19:7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Gen 19:8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
Gen 19:9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
Gen 19:10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door.
Gen 19:11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

Just out of curiosity, as I admittedly havn't read much from the Bible....

Is this where that "old wive's tale" has its roots that suggests if you have too much sex you will go blind?

For me, this is just further proof that the Bible is a great story...and that's it...The End....



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