Israel owes Hamas and Palestine an apology

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Humanity4Ever
Sure, no problem, but only after Hamas apologizes for almost 30 years of terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians...

Then Israel can apologize for the 60 plus years of terrorist attacks on Palestinians.

Correction...60 years of defending Israel from Palestinian terrorist attacks.

originally posted by: Humanity4Ever
a reply to: daaskapital

It's very simple. If Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel, stops building underground tunnels to commit acts of terrorism, and renounces their charter, there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. If all of that doesn't change there is no hope for everlasting peace.

Were there really any problems regarding the tunnels, before this war started though? I'm sure a lot of them have always been there, but i've never really heard of their use (for acts of aggression/terrorism) outside of wartime.

That said, i believe Hamas had only fired rockets in late June, after an Israeli airstrike killed and injured some people in Gaza.

As for their charter, it does need to be changed. Contrary to popular belief though, Hamas does not seek the mass genocide of Jews. Only the destruction of Israel, as a state. Obviously that is still problematic, and sits in the way of a peaceful solution.

I saw a fascinating interview with former Israeli prime minister Shimon Peres the other day, and he was oddly optimistic about the prospects for peace and an inevitable two state solution, provided that Fatah can become the governing body for all Palestinians; in the West Bank as well as Gaza. He said that Mahmoud Abbas is the ideal partner to negotiate an everlasting peace treaty, and under those circumstances, with the assurance of security, that Israel would be willing to make concessions.

I don't think many people here realize this, but the PLO (Fatah) was the very first (and only) Palestinian governing body to actually recognize Israel's right to exist, and that was a fairly recent development in historical terms. The problem is, Fatah does not represent all Palestinians, because it's currently divided geographically as well as philosophically.

I agree.

A Palestine under Fatah would be ideal, due to the reasons you presented above.

For a lasting peace, i imagine that Hamas would have to be destroyed, or coerced to change their charter and internal beliefs. If they were to be destroyed, Israel had better be sure that Fatah is in such a position as to successfully take power. As without that assurance, they risk the chance of creating a vacuum whereby worse parties may challenge for governance.

There has to be a unified, diplomatic representative of the Palestinian people as a whole that is willing to discuss a two state solution before the notion of an everlasting peace can even be entertained.

Israel obviously can't negotiate with an entity that is sworn to it's destruction.

I do agree. That said, Israel may not want to negotiate with Hamas, but there isn't anything stopping them from negotiating with Abbas. As far as i am aware, Israel has mostly ignored Fatah and Abbas during the recent war, which is the wrong tactic, in my opinion. Instead of ignoring them for creating a unified government, they should be actively working with them.

a reply to: daaskapital

The last time Israel negotiated with Fatah and ignored the radicals in Gaza was in 2005.

Israel completely withdrew from Gaza and conceded additional land, forcefully removing 40,000 Jewish settlers, moving graves from cemetaries, and abandoning homes, schools, and synagogues. They handed over control to Fatah, in the hopes of taking the first step towards everlasting peace, and the world applauded.

Within 48 hours, Hamas militants overtook Fatah, murdered their politicians by throwing them off of rooftops, and proceed to launch a campaign of terror against Israel ever since.

One diplomatic governing body of Palestine is the only viable alternative for peace.

originally posted by: Humanity4Ever

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Humanity4Ever
Sure, no problem, but only after Hamas apologizes for almost 30 years of terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians...

Then Israel can apologize for the 60 plus years of terrorist attacks on Palestinians.

Correction...60 years of defending Israel from Palestinian terrorist attacks.

Yes like poor innocent Israel was doing nothing in the 60 years. That's why Palestine shrunk from 49% to what 20%?

Speaking of this "kidnapped" soldier, this might interest you:

Israeli Military Wanted Prior Review Of NYT Articles On Soldier Goldin

Israel's military censor wanted prior review of the New York Times' article on Second Lt. Hadar Goldin, a missing Israeli officer now believed dead.

In the Times' August 1 article, "Gaza Fighting Intensifies as Cease-Fire Falls Apart," the Times revealed that it was the first time "in more than six years" Israel wanted prior review.

The Times said it didn't fully comply with the order. Instead of sending "a draft of this article," they just "summarized" the section of its article about Goldin in a phone call. The Times's report reads, as of August 2:

"Israel’s military censor informed The New York Times that material related to the missing officer had to be submitted for review, the first such notification in more than six years. International journalists must agree in writing to the censorship system in order to work in Israel. The Times did not send the censor a draft of this article before publication, but summarized over the phone its biographical references to Lieutenant Goldin."

Interestingly, the Huffington Post noted that the Times didn't include that paragraph about the censor until "nearly six hours" after publication, pointing to News Diffs' record of changes to the article. That may have been because the prior review request came after publication for future reports.

Article continues at the link above.

originally posted by: daaskapital
Israel owes Hamas and Palestine an apology.

Why?

Because Israel directly blamed Hamas for the 'kidnapping' of an IDF officer, and proceeded to murder over 150 people as a result.

That soldier, Hadar Goldin, was found to be killed in action.

Israel on Sunday declared dead a soldier feared abducted by Hamas Islamist militants in the Gaza Strip and said it would continue to fight even after the army completes destroying cross-border tunnels used by Palestinian fighters to attack its territory.

It was determined that Hadar Goldin, 23, the soldier Israel had feared Hamas militants abducted on Friday, was killed in action during an operation in the southern Gaza Strip, an army statement said.

goo.gl...

Of course, it shouldn't be surprising to see Israel point fingers, considering they done the same regarding the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers. Hamas kidnapped neither, the three teenagers, nor the IDF officer. And for that, Israel owes them, and the people of Palestine, an apology.

If that deserves an apology, what should they do for falsely blaming Hamas for kidnapping the three teenagers that escalated this war?

You can't make people see something that they don't want to see. They hide securely behind the re-question of any question... What would you do if 3,000 rockets were fired at you? Nothing else matter to them besides that. The fact they 99% of them get stopped! or they never kill any citizens, or they're the ones driving the Palestinians to fight back, or 1300 civilians are dead with 40% of them children! or their knock knock warning shots are followed by missiles after less than a minute not the claimed 15 minutes, or they're the one breaking international resolutions, or they helped create hamas to neutralize Arafat PLO, or they've broken more cease fires than Hamas ( per UN), or they arrested 800 people right before the conflict without charges, or they have withheld palestinian salaries for over 6 months... I could keep going.

But no, it's always the good old, "what would you do if 3,000 rockets came your way?

Interesting to add, Michael Bloomberg recently came back from Israel and said, "open the airports, there's no threat, those rockets can't hurt anything and the dome keeps most out anyway."

Yeah, it's those 3,000 rockets though.

AAC.

originally posted by: buster2010
Yes like poor innocent Israel was doing nothing in the 60 years. That's why Palestine shrunk from 49% to what 20%?

It is kind of funny when you look at 500 plus years of the Ottoman empire there is no Palestine anywhere, so how did you come up with your percentages?

a reply to: daaskapital

Israel should according to you apologize?

I disagree entirely, because according to the Statute of the International Criminal Court, the use of Israeli IDF military uniforms (which these Hamas soldiers were using during this operation) are illegal in wars.

If things were normal, Hamas should have been condemned and prosecuted for these war crimes.

originally posted by: Snarl
I imagine that apology will be forthcoming ... right after Hamas apologizes for breaking the ceasefire and killing that guy and the other two.

That of .course, in turn, will be after Israel apologises for stealing land from Palestine and creating illegal settlements?

I wish you lot would STFU about who broke the ceasefire, not one of you has an iota of proof about who broke it, all you have is conjecture and theory. All you are doing is making yourselves sound childish...

originally posted by: helius
a reply to: daaskapital

Israel should according to you apologize?

I disagree entirely, because according to the Statute of the International Criminal Court, the use of Israeli IDF military uniforms (which these Hamas soldiers were using during this operation) are illegal in wars.

If things were normal, Hamas should have been condemned and prosecuted for these war crimes.

can you show me where it says they were wearing idf uniforms please. Because from what has been reported Here Hamas claimed they had no contact with the militants in that area. But then the articles goes on to say that their was a suicide bomber, then a gunfight, then everyone body dead. The Hamas source then goes on to say how they died completely contradicted the part where they had Jo contact with those militants and they were all dead.

Sounds fishy. Per usual. Israel lied about Hamas kidnapping the three teenagers, then lied about this soldier being abducted, so more lying would not be out of the question.

AAC.

a reply to: AnAbsoluteCreation

It is unclear in this case, but they were useing IDF military uniforms in other similar tunnel attacks. However. If they were not using IDF uniforms, then they were probably using civil clothes, which is a war crime as well. Using a suicide bomber as weapons is also very questionable, especially if he/her were wearing civilian clothes and in addition to this perhaps was brainwashed into it. If he/her in addition to this was a minor (as lots of them are), lots of other laws are broken as well.

When these islamists are keeping waging war whenever they feel like, they should at least follow some rules. To demand an apology after committing several war crimes is to stretch it a bit too far.

When they start wars, they should at least pay the consequences when things goes badly for them afterwards.

I don't know why Hamas even bother digging tunnels into Israel, when all they have to do is dig a hole and wait...eventually Israel will come to them.

a reply to: Flatcoat

”I don’t know why Hamas even bother digging tunnels into Israel”

Knowing your post probably was some kind of twisted anti Israel humor, it is actually a good question.

Since Mainstream media and pro Islamic jihadists in the west avoids to comment or write articles on this, it’s probably because they know it is not favorable for the islamists on Gaza. They should of course have asked the same questions as many other people do. And that question is:

Why would these guys spend an incredible amount of time and resources in years of peace to build tunnels into Israel and preparing for war, while they could have used all this on projects that benefitted the common people instead. They could for instance have built hospitals or bomb shelters or child care centers.

Western Pro jihadist always makes a big deal out of Hamas lacking building material and concrete, but according to pro Israel sources , these tunnels contains enough concrete to build a couple of big hospitals. I am just saying this, because these are all valid questions that nobody ever confront these people with. Instead the global community pretty much is silent and allows these rebels to continue with every kind of counter productive activity they can figure out, like making bombs, weapons and building rockets and things like that.

That’s my opinion anyway.

a reply to: helius

The problem is that everyone automatically assumes that these tunnels are for offensive purposes. No-one ever speculates that maybe some are used for bringing much needed supplies into Gaza, bypassing the barbaric blockade and sanctions that the Israelis have imposed on them. Or just maybe some are used to give the civilians somewhere to shelter when the Israeli bombardment begins.

a reply to: Flatcoat

Oh. Common man. Don't give me that.

originally posted by: helius
a reply to: Flatcoat

Oh. Common man. Don't give me that.

Care to clarify a little? Your comment makes no sense at all.

a reply to: Flatcoat

Sorry. This one you gotta figure out for yourself ):-

Ps. This is my absolutely last post in any of the multitude of hate related Israeli threads here on ATS. I wasn’t supposed to get sucked into these meaningless discussions in the first place. I simply have forgot how depressing and hurting they are and what they do to your mind. I just got reminded.

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: helius

The problem is that everyone automatically assumes that these tunnels are for offensive purposes. No-one ever speculates that maybe some are used for bringing much needed supplies into Gaza, bypassing the barbaric blockade and sanctions that the Israelis have imposed on them. Or just maybe some are used to give the civilians somewhere to shelter when the Israeli bombardment begins.

and they would automatically be correct.

so what are they getting from the tunnels on the israeli side?

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: helius

The problem is that everyone automatically assumes that these tunnels are for offensive purposes. No-one ever speculates that maybe some are used for bringing much needed supplies into Gaza, bypassing the barbaric blockade and sanctions that the Israelis have imposed on them. Or just maybe some are used to give the civilians somewhere to shelter when the Israeli bombardment begins.

and they would automatically be correct.

so what are they getting from the tunnels on the israeli side?

Do all the tunnels lead to Israel?