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Libertarians are we Conservative or Liberal?

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posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:13 PM
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Just wanted to debate an issue that has recently came up.

Are Libertarians Conservative or liberal?

I think we form another Ideology all together and that neither term is even close to being correct.

Can a Conservative be for Gay Marriage, Multiple Marriage, against drug laws, foreign intervention, the patriot act,etc?

Can a Liberal be against welfare, taxes, gun control, for less government, etc?

Where do yall think we fit?



Can a person holding BOTH sets of Ideals belong to either party?




posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:26 PM
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In answer to your first question, Yes.

In answer to your second question, No.

I don't think any group of people that honestly believes in personal responsibility above, ceeding their responsibility to a government, anything other then a libertarian.

While I can related to a lot of the conservative ideals, I think most of them need to unpucker.
And while I can relate to a lot of the liberal ideals, I think alot of them need to grow up and except responsibility for their own lives.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 07:36 PM
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Its a combo of both but really it's, its own enigma. Its not too right-wing extreme nor is it too left-wing extreme.

Can a real definition of those views share the Libertarian ones? I think not. No Republican can be for gay marriage, and the other things Amuk mentioned the same for the Democrat and what Amuk mentioded for liberals.

What Libertarianism in terms of beliefs are, I can say its the best of both sides in one dish.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 08:23 PM
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Another question could be:
Can you be a Libertarian and still think some federal legislation is good?

For example, considering the way society is, I cannot imagine abolishing all drug laws. People just couldn't adapt to a country where drug laws didin't exist. A whole subculture of pushers, users and law enforcement would need to disappear. The culture couldn't change that fast.
So, I think it would be necessary for Libertarians to be flexible and keep certain aspects of the left and the right.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:27 PM
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Libertarians are anti-Federalists. Period. They don't exclude liberalism or conservatism.

They are anti-authoritarian (liberal) AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, and fiscal conservatives AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, but in your state or town...anything goes.

They don't have to agree on anything except to disagree. You can be Libertarian and against abortion as long as it's your state that rules against it. Same with gay marriage. Or your state can legalize everything including 200 MPH speed limits, mulitple marriages and beastiality and that's just fine. Or you can be a New Yorker Libertarian and outlaw all guns in the city limits if you want, just leave Kansas alone. That's not contradictory. It's LIBERTARIAN!

It's just about decentralizing government. Not outlawing laws.

Libertarians can be socialist, anarchist, minarchist, bible thumpers...anything they want. Kind of the whole point. Personal responsibility. You decide. Your peers. Your town. Your state. Just anti-Federal consolidated power. Anti-Big Brother. But powerful cousins are just fine.

It's not like there aren't about a million websites and discussion boards on all these views Sorry to be brash, but it's not like Libertarians are some great discovery or invention. Nor are they hardly an enigma. Been around the block and lost lots and lots of elections in some form or another for many, many years.

It's more an underlying philosopy than a unifying movement. Don't believe me? Go to the Liberty forums and watch 'em fight with each other about what being a Libertarian is supposed to mean.
For free thinkers you guys sure like to pigeon hole and label each other.

Sorry, I'm in a mood.

PS - You're never going to win.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by RANT Libertarians are anti-Federalists. Period.
And that is the primary concept at the core of traditional conservatism.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
Libertarians are anti-Federalists. Period. They don't exclude liberalism or conservatism.

They are anti-authoritarian (liberal) AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, and fiscal conservatives AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, but in your state or town...anything goes.

Holy CRAP! I can't believe I am about to say this... But I agree with Rant.


Maybe I am only speaking for myself here, but this statement is very much at the core of my own personal political agenda. This and the other bit about personal responsibility.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
Sorry, I'm in a mood.

PS - You're never going to win.


Damn Rant, do you need a Midol?


I don't see what we are arguing about we are saying the same thing. I am not claiming that Libertarianism excludes either conservative or liberal as a matter of fact I am saying that it includes both. An argument could just as easily be made that socialism does not exclude either one too.

I am not claiming Libertarians are a new invention as a matter of fact I honestly believe that a good portion of the Founding Fathers would be Libertarians. I just don't agree that they can be labeled conservative or liberal, although if pressed I would have to admit we come closer to conservative views than liberal.

You want to know what we have in common with the Democrats?

We both lost the last election





[edit on 4-12-2004 by Amuk]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by RANT
Libertarians are anti-Federalists. Period.


And that is the primary concept at the core of traditional conservatism.


And I agree but we have "conservatives" controling all three branches of government and what do we have? More Governmental powers, less freedom, more government interferiance at ever level, a record defict, etc.

I guess my gripe is not really Libertarians being called conservative but with Republicans being called conserative



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by RANT

It's more an underlying philosopy than a unifying movement. )


That is exactly what I am saying that IT is a philosopy in itself. I am not arguing for a forum on this thread SO said no and its his choice, what I am trying to do is find out what others think we are and what WE think we are. I would go with conservative myself but to me the meaning has been perverted to something else all togather.

For better or worse in the minds of people today
Conservative=Republican
Liberal=Democrat

[edit on 4-12-2004 by Amuk]



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Damn Rant, do you need a Midol?


Needed one about the past four years.


Originally posted by Amuk
I guess my gripe is not really Libertarians being called conservative but with Republicans being called conserative


Me and you both Brother. I'm actually getting rather tired of them just being...

My New Year's resolution is to be less tolerant.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
Libertarians are anti-Federalists.


This statement is true, however you seem to think that anti-federalism is our defining philosophy, and I disagree. Anti-federalism is a product of our defining philosophy, which is one of non-initiation of force. We are against the initiation of force even when it comes from state and local governments. Granted we would like to see much of the authority the federal government has claimed for itself returned to the state, that would not make the states power over its residents absolute. Things like New York’s gun laws and mandatory taxation would be opposed by Libertarians no matter how local the government that instated them was.

Amuk, although I don't think we fit well into the modern definitions of liberal and conservative, I think most Libertarians came from the Republican Party and would return to it if they for some reason absolutely had to make the choice. I don't think we fit well into the left/right spectrum, although I have heard many people describe us as right-wing extremists but never left wing anything.

I would say instead of moderates who take their ideas from the middle, we grab ideas from the far right and far left and bring them to the middle.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
I don't think we fit well into the left/right spectrum, although I have heard many people describe us as right-wing extremists but never left wing anything.


That is one of the reasons I brought this thread up. I have heard the right describe us as dope smoking hippy anarcists and the left describe us as gun toting milita members and just wondered who most thought we were and more important what WE thought we were.

To me its easy....

we are freedom lovers



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:49 PM
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Eeeek! Tough one. Though, I think I may have an interesting reply.

Libertarians are liberal, and let me tell you why I think this is so.

First of all, liberal and conservative are actually a little different than right and left. In the united states, right is associated with conservatism, while liberal is associated with left. However, in a more global perspective, things change. Those who are conservatives are communists/socialists, and those who are liberals are capitalists.

Conservatism is an ideology that at its core is the desire to return the country to some idealized past. On the same end of the spectrum, liberalism is the desire to progress from the past. In reality, liberals are progressives. Believe it or not, but from these definitions, the national socialists were actually quite conservative. However, why is this so? Historically, governments have become weaker as time goes on; they have given their citizens more and more rights.

As such, a progressive government gets associated with governments that have freer citizens. Thus, freedom becomes the hallmark for the advanced state. Most people can quickly figure out that the root word for liberal is liberty (a state of freedom), and the dictionary recognizes this.

The first two definitions that have meaning to our context in Merriam Webster for Liberalism looks like this:



2. b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties


Ask yourself, what does that definition seem to define? Libertarian, and rightly so. Look at the root of libertarian itself: Liberty->Liberal->Libertarian. It is not that far off.

Do not let the rightists confuse the word, or let Rush Limbaugh hammer it into your head; Liberal does not mean democrat; they stole the word -- it properly belongs to us, the champions of limited government -- libertarians.

--Radardog


[edit on 4-12-2004 by radardog]



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

That is one of the reasons I brought this thread up. I have heard the right describe us as dope smoking hippy anarcists and the left describe us as gun toting milita members and just wondered who most thought we were and more important what WE thought we were.


It's funny you should say that, because I always thought of us Libertarians as gun-toting hippies.

Editted to add more: I think Libs belong in our own catagory. I think our views on social issues keep us from being considered conservative, and everything else keeps us out of the liberal catagory.

[edit on 19-12-2004 by TheLiLBeam]



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 07:23 PM
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I'd say I'm a bit of a conservative leaning-Libertarian.


For example:

(A) I'm not for gay marriage.
(B) I love the idea that everyone takes care of themselves.
(C) I dislike the idea of the government having to "take-care" of the people every step of the way (ie too much government).
(D) I definitely believe in fighting when necessary.
(E) I like the idea of privatizing Social Security.
(F) I'm Pro-Bush.

I'm a bit too the right on the Libertarian scale.

Cheers,

-wD



posted on May, 13 2005 @ 08:10 PM
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Looking from the outside in I dont think Libertarians fit anywhere on the American political spectrum. On a global politcal spectrum I would say that Libertarians are true consertives with progressive social views. Although some Libertarians would be more left leaning I thinking of the isolationists.

The ideal that Libertarians strive for can be found world wide. The only differnce being the ideal in the USA has a name.

[edit on 13-5-2005 by xpert11]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Amuk, you thick-skulled biker, how many times must I have to tell you; if you are not factually and historically correct, what difference does it make?

Try these guys out. I compare my extensive and vast knowledge of this grand nation's original intent to the political parties, and this one comes the closest to being on the mark:

www.constitutionparty.com...

You might not like everything you read, but it's there.

One day I'll drive up to Arkansas and give you a personal, three day crash course. Of course, it would take much more time to pass on ALL of my incredible knowledge, but three days should be the primer you need to get you on your way.

Until you see the light, merely trust me. I won't lead you astray!



posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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Thomas,

I like the constitution party, and barring the Christianity it is a nice balance focusing on the Constitution (obviously). Perhaps the Libertarians are stronger in the inclusiveness of their platform.

If they joined forces and improved on the areas the other lacked in, it would make a mighty fine party in my book.

They are the truth the way and the light though.



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by RANT
Libertarians are anti-Federalists.


This statement is true, however you seem to think that anti-federalism is our defining philosophy, and I disagree. Anti-federalism is a product of our defining philosophy, which is one of non-initiation of force. We are against the initiation of force even when it comes from state and local governments. Granted we would like to see much of the authority the federal government has claimed for itself returned to the state, that would not make the states power over its residents absolute. Things like New York?s gun laws and mandatory taxation would be opposed by Libertarians no matter how local the government that instated them was.

Amuk, although I don't think we fit well into the modern definitions of liberal and conservative, I think most Libertarians came from the Republican Party and would return to it if they for some reason absolutely had to make the choice. I don't think we fit well into the left/right spectrum, although I have heard many people describe us as right-wing extremists but never left wing anything.

I would say instead of moderates who take their ideas from the middle, we grab ideas from the far right and far left and bring them to the middle.


How beautifully said... Like a nice romantic novel right before bed... (not that i read any lol, but hopefully you get my point)

And I would agree with the whole statement... My state part leader told me goldwater republicans started the libertarian party when they saw how religious the right was getting and interjecting that into their ideas/issues.







 
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