Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

Russia cannot send its military into Ukraine as "peacekeepers" unless Ukraine agrees to it and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Secondly when 2 nations are involved, one nation does not send its military into the other as peacekeepers. Especially when said nation invaded Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

In that case, Russia is left with no other choice but to increase the covert aid to the rebels by 4 times.

This makes more sense as Junta in Kiev is having problems raising funds via Bonds so to buy more weapons and ammo would be a real issue. No one is going to sell them weapons on credit.

More damage the rebels do to the Junta forces, more desertions and mutiny will take place in already maxed out force.

a reply to: stumason

Russia’s population simply is not the same as it was back then and will not tolerate nor be able to sustain such a campaign again.

But you forget that Russia has allies like China and India plus majority of middle east to help out in the cause of smashing the bullies.

You also forget that the presence of nuclear weapons along with other WMDs kind of negate many other conventional advantages that NATO has....................and that too if NATO survives as a coalition during or right before the conflict.

originally posted by: MrSpad

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Vovin

I believe Russia has made a mistake by not recognizing the DPR. This way they could have openly given heavy weapons support including helicopters and fighter planes and the equation on the battlefield would have been a nearly equal match up. Equipment on ground would have also meant that Russian operators could be involved till the time DPR militia is well trained. This mostly for helicopters and planes. Mere $50K can get militia an operating T-72 ready for action.

Still now, several truckloads of MANPADS, RPGs, Landmines, anti tank Kornets, anti material rifles can change the course by severely bogging down the Junta forces. These require not much training and if needed Russian specialists can be smuggled in for efficiency. Even $500 drones can provide militia with good real time intelligence to plan any ambush with high safety and efficiency.

Due to proximity of Russian artillery on the south and east side, the total encirclement of Donetsk and Lugansk should not take place. But that is not enough. More important is to push back the Junta forces from all the sides.

The only thing that is going to save the rebels is full scale Russian intervention. The lack of local support not only ruins recruiting more men but, also means losing out on intelligence, supply and the ability to go to ground. No rebel force can sustain operations without the support of the people in the area it is operating in. I do not know if the Russians assumed that the rebels would have more support and it just never happened or if they had it at first and the rebels actions like stealing everything they can in every village ruined that support. Either way the rebels who could have sustained for years with local support will be lucky to be around in a couple of months.

Again, you managed to post a statement about how the separatists have no local support. I demand sources to prove this as it makes no sense and certainly does not follow the evidence from the ground that I am seeing.

I want you to explain to me how the separatists do not have local support when the local population in many towns are being indiscriminately killed by artillery of all types, everyday? Or how the Ukrainian Military has blockaded supplies and essential resources, attempting to win hearts and minds of the Ukrainian population that they are attacking by starving them?

How does that make any sense that the separatists have no local support? It's absurd. The Ukrainian Army is so doomed that hundreds of its soldiers are abandoning their equipment to the separatists and running to Russia for asylum. They claim that Kiev has abandoned them, does not pay or feed them or give them enough ammunition. The soldiers break down and cry instead of fight.

Kiev has just passed a law where they will cut all social assistance (welfare) starting in November in order to put more funding into the military effort. Their attitude is that the poor and desperate in western Ukraine will volunteer to join the military if they want to continue receiving welfare. Kiev also tries to avoid paying pensions for dead soldiers' families by claiming the soldiers are MIA (or in other words, defected).

Oh, and did you know that hot water was just cut off in Kiev? They need to "conserve" for the winter months.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: victor7
Either Russia enters the theater as a peacekeeper or increases the covert support by 4x. This will help rebels push the Junta forces much away from the current set up. That is the immediate requirement.

It would be idiotic for Russia to do nothing at this crucial moment. Both artillery and aviation are being used by Junta against the civilians in Donetsk.

You know, saying it 4 times in a post that really added nothing - you clearly just made this post so you could say "Junta" as many times as possible - is just a tad childish.

Nothing is being "used against civilians" - it is being used against rebels who are hiding amongst civilians populations in built up area's - and certainly no where near to the extent Russia has deployed heavy weaponry and aircraft against it's own population (and that of other nations) in recent years - see Chechnya or Georgia for example. It is very hypocritical of you to keep banging on about it.

Why are you so concerned about describing it as a junta? It looks like a junta to me. Looks like a junta to many people in the world. Kinda looks like the juntas that the USA put into power elsewhere in the world through "democratic elections", like Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

If you don't like the use of the word "junta", then that's fine. But nobody needs to hear your whining about its use. Not everybody is willing to believe that a nice little democracy blossomed in Ukraine.

a reply to: Vovin

yet the whole world has recognized the government in Ukraine as legitimate. So, no, the world does not see it that way.

The only other place we here the term junta used is in Russian media. Ironic since they are never able to explain why they use the term.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Vovin

yet the whole world has recognized the government in Ukraine as legitimate. So, no, the world does not see it that way.

The only other place we here the term junta used is in Russian media. Ironic since they are never able to explain why they use the term.

Well if you had any political science background then you wouldn't need it explained to you.

Your country funded a coup in Ukrainian by backing right-wing radicals, and then sponsored a "democratic" election months after the previously democratically elected government was deposed of and their electoral base was intimidated through violence and jingoist laws.

Funny how the US pick for the next head of state and his team got those positions after the vote. It's as if it was orchestrated this way.

And the most obvious question that you love to ignore is: what business does the USA have to do with internal Ukrainian politics?

But I guess that it's just shear coincidence that the US State Department put so many resources and effort into Ukraine this year. Maybe Nuland just picked Ukraine out of a hat?

he Ukrainian Army is so doomed that hundreds of its soldiers are abandoning their equipment to the separatists and running to Russia for asylum. They claim that Kiev has abandoned them, does not pay or feed them or give them enough ammunition. The soldiers break down and cry instead of fight.

a reply to: Vovin

Situation is not good at all for the militia. One incident of Junta forces crossing into Russia means nothing.

Worst is in area like Dmitrivoka which is less than 20km from the border, there is no help coming from Russians.

Yesterday Marinka fell finally. At this rate, in 2-3 days Donetsk will be encircled. Seems militia finally getting outnumbered in heavy weapons. Russians sitting idle like a drunk bitch.

a reply to: Vovin

The word Junta is specifically used to describe a Military Government.. It's like me describing Russia as a Monarchy.

I get that you think the Government is illegitimate, but that is in complete contradiction of the facts. The President was elected and the Parliament is the same one as sat under Yukanovich - even Putin recognises the newly elected President.

a reply to: victor7

Yeah, because they're going to rush their own countries into a costly and pointless war to satisfy Putin's grandiose schemes to resurrect the Soviet Empire. I'd hardly call either country an "ally" anyway, not in the traditional sense - friendly trading partners, at best.

Both India and China look out for themselves at the end of the day, like any World power has done before and will do in the future.

I'm sure China would quite like to see Russia get taken to pieces in a costly war with the West, so they can roll in on the Siberian oil and Gas fields themselves, not to mention supplying both sides with a large amount of materials to fight it.

India simply has no dog in the fight and won't want to weaken itself economically (by losing trade with the West) or militarily, lest Pakistan get uppity or end up in the control of hardline freak shows.

As usual, this thread has been steered away from the actual topic: the alleged use of so-called "Weapons of Mass Destruction" by the Ukrainian government. There is absolutely no evidence that the government has used chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, the "WMD trinity." Since the OP has intentionally tried to present a conventional weapon as a "WMD," this thread belongs in the [HOAX!] bin.

The comments appeared in a report on a visit by Shoigu today to a military base in Samara.

ITAR-TASS reports (translated by The Interpreter):

Shoigu said that Russian peacekeeping forces must be in a state of constant readiness to fulfil their tasks.

"The world has changed, changed dramatically. As you know from previous cases, including this brigade, peacekeeping units may be called upon unexpectedly," he said.

"This is precisely why divisions and brigades of the peacekeeping forces must maintain constant combat readiness," explained the minister.

Shoigu also said that peacekeeping units should only be staffed by contract soldiers, not conscripts.

a reply to: stumason

Just hope this tension does not unleash into madness involving the nukes etc.

West is stretching its buck a bit too far. If China, India, Pak, Iran and others do not help Russia at this point, then they will under the gun not long after.

Like mentioned before, either act up now or pay big later !!

a reply to: DJW001

As usual, this thread has been steered away from the actual topic

Since the OP has intentionally tried to present a conventional weapon as a "WMD," this thread belongs in the [HOAX!] bin.

Agreed this has steered off topic which was ballistic missiles being used against the separatists by Kiev's troops.

However I was not presenting these missiles as WMD's. The linked article made that claim which has been debunked numerous times already.

Still I wonder, if a big Iraqi box of empty nothings can be sold to the UN as WMD's then why not ballistic missiles?

a reply to: Bassago

However I was not presenting these missiles as WMD's. The linked article made that claim which has been debunked numerous times already.

Thank you. Russian propaganda relies on unsubstantiated claims being repeated often enough that they begin to pass as fact. The government in Kiyev is now duly and legally elected, not a junta. The extreme nationalists are a minority, so the government is neither neo-Nazi nor Fascist. The presence of Ukrainian jets in the air when the Malaysian jetliner was shot down has never been proven... and yet people continue to parrot these claims.

a reply to: victor7

"The world has changed, changed dramatically. As you know from previous cases, including this brigade, peacekeeping units may be called upon unexpectedly," he said.

How can one be considered a peacekeeper when they are the reason there is no peace.

"This is precisely why divisions and brigades of the peacekeeping forces must maintain constant combat readiness," explained the minister.

He can call them peacekeepers all he want's, but as soon as a Russian military brigade crosses into Ukraine it's considered an invasion.

This is considered an internal issue in Ukraine...Russia has no right to send troops into Ukraine just as Ukraine would have no right sending troops into Russia under the guise of peacekeeping.

Shoigu also said that peacekeeping units should only be staffed by contract soldiers, not conscripts.

I guess now we have to refer to the separatists as peacekeepers since they are a contracted military of Russia, and yes Russia is paying the bills to back them in Ukraine.

a reply to: victor7

Just hope this tension does not unleash into madness involving the nukes etc.

Why are you stuck on things going nuclear?

You do understand as I have said before...Putin may be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

originally posted by: DirtyD
Well, according to the MSM an AR-15 is a weapon of mass destruction, so pretty much everyone involved in the Ukraine is a terrorist war criminal.

please show where they have said that...I have not seen it or heard it on the MSM.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Finally, I might have to agree with you here........partially.............Putin is not stupid.

However, he can be toppled by a hardliner or a nut case in the event matters go high stakes.

Russia has no right to send troops into Ukraine just as Ukraine would have no right sending troops into Russia under the guise of peacekeeping.

And Kiev Junta has NO RIGHT to bomb civilians using artillery, rockets, aviation and white phosphorus incendiary bombs.

HOW COME MORE THAN 1000 CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

BY MOSQUITO BITES ???????????????

www.blacklistednews.com...

Obama's takeover of Ukraine -- or of the romp western portion of it that will remain as "Ukraine" after the civil war that Obama started there -- will leave a weakened United States, and a world far more hostile to us. He, and his stooges in Europe, may succeed in harming Russia, but the public in every nation will be harmed by what Obama has done in Ukraine. A few aristocrats who will be grabbing former Ukrainian assets will gain, but they and their U.S. and EU partners (such as Exxon, Chevron, and Shell) will be the only ones who will.

Aristocrats are the only people that Obama really cares about. He certainly doesn't shed crocodile tears over the hundreds of thousands of residents in southeastern Ukraine who are either being murdered or else fleeing into refugee camps inside Russia, all due to him – due to people he has appointed, decisions he has made, and actions he has taken.

For everybody except Obama’s patrons, his policies regarding Ukraine are disastrous.

a reply to: victor7

And Kiev Junta has NO RIGHT to bomb civilians using artillery, rockets, aviation and white phosphorus incendiary bombs.

The legally elected government in Kiyev has the right to put down an insurgency by force. They are not targeting civilians, the are targeting the Fascist militias. Civilians are free to leave the fighting, to avoid becoming collateral damage. Where is your proof that white phosphorus is being used?