Spiritual Reorientation 11: Fatalism

originally posted by: Aphorism
We can only ever provide the content for these concepts, where these concepts provide absolutely no meaning on their own, and in that sense we are giving meaning to nothings, and that in my mind, is meaningless.

OKay. Thanks for helping me understand better. This is the part we disagree upon. If I have given it meaning, then it is no longer meaningless for me. Once I have given them meaning, they have significance, they have purpose.
For example, I have an image in my mind that I have created, and that I have put together to signify the experience of comfort and security and relaxation. Now I can call upon that and focus upon when I wish to create lower blood pressure, slower heartrate, and minimum muscle tension. It now has a purpose and serves me.

I have a vision of a tropical beach that I use, and it has gotten me through surgeries and three births without use of drugs. Some people use an image they decide is angel, or Jesus, or a Lotus....

I see our psychology as an important tool for the body, imagination has great power to aid us in our choices of action. Therefore it has purpose....it is not meaningless.

I understand what you mean about stopping the mental faculties for a while, or a reset, but I would argue that people stare at televisions for the exact same reason. It is my opinion that we should instead agitate these faculties, whip them into a creative frenzy and learn to use them, rather than try to turn them off.

On that note, the television is not the equivalent of meditation because of the continuation of input and stimulus into the subconscious. It just means you allow information and ideas to be downloaded into your subconscious (which shall influence your actions and reactions to the physical world) without any filtering.

The benefit of meditation without a stimulus, and without being asleep, is the possibility of experiencing and becoming aware of the actual nothingness inside that you attempt to describe here. With that can come the knowledge that it is our self who write upon that blank slate- that all meanings are created by us, they are not inherent.

When you sleep, your conscious mind does not experience and learn this, and the subconscious becomes more active as well, playing around with these internal objects (images, sensual memories, emotions...) to create dreams, instead of dropping those toys.

But we don't have to agree on everything. It's no biggie. If we can at least understand what it is exactly we disagree and agree upon, that is already effective communication... which is really the essential for me in dialogue.

I had something come up in my Facebook feed today that made me ponder.

It brings up the whole question of fatalistic passivity- perhaps that is appropriate here, just to help stimulate the conversation...?

“When faced with senseless
drama, spiteful criticisms
and misguided opinions,
walking away is the best way
to stand up for yourself. To
respond with anger is an
endorsement of their
attitude.”
-Dodinsky

What say you, readers of this thread? Do you agree with this?
Do you turn around and acknowledge and fight, or do you ignore and walk away?
Why or why not? Do your spiritual beliefs play a part in your choice?

a reply to: Bluesma

I'm just going to offer some opinions. Please don't see it as disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Your ideas are quite important to me, being that they help me refine my own concepts.

The benefit of meditation without a stimulus, and without being asleep, is the possibility of experiencing and becoming aware of the actual nothingness inside that you attempt to describe here. With that can come the knowledge that it is our self who write upon that blank slate- that all meanings are created by us, they are not inherent.

First, I don't believe there is such thing as no stimulus. The body is stimulated the entire time it is alive. Whether one finds a quite place or a loud one should make no spiritual difference.

I do not necessarily believe in a tabula rasa or blank slate. We are equipped with an entirely unique body upon birth and it governs how, what and why we learn. A man born without sight will learn and grow differently, as will people with a medley of medical conditions, environmental factors and so on. Minds differ because bodies differ. We do not all start of with the exact same blank slate, and I think the idea certainly untenable, although it has become a dogma.

“When faced with senseless
drama, spiteful criticisms
and misguided opinions,
walking away is the best way
to stand up for yourself. To
respond with anger is an
endorsement of their
attitude.”

Unfortunately, there are probably too few readers of this thread to respond. So I hope you don't mind if I offer my opinion as well.

I would have to agree with the quote somewhat, insofar as anger isn't necessarily the answer, but only because the anger mentioned is the inability to control an entire plethora of emotional responses in a situation of criticism and drama. Anger and attention is what they want, and to simply give in to that anger, to let it happen, to let the base animalistic urges take control rather than serve as indicators, is irrational. But walking away is passive aggressive. It is still spiteful. The situation is left in a completely negative condition.

In terms of spirituality, imagine if everyone just turned around and walked away. Imagine if everyone practiced non-doing. What would the world be like?

a reply to: Aphorism

it matters what you mean by non-doing

who is the one doing? if you have someone doing, then there is doing in the light of all the emotions

but what if there is found no one doing? then there is doing in non-doing. because no one is doing! it is just happening! and no one to get in the way...

but who knows, maybe we are just the body, and the brain and mind born of it

there is such a thing as non-stimuli, but it doesn't exist in the body, it exists in nothing, and there is yet an awareness there, subtle, non-moving, the quietest place you've ever been

thats the only place anyone ever hangs out in, they just don't see it, they see the matrix, here and there, they feel the stimuli, from here and there, from inside, from their own bodies

but you won't believe me, because you have not seen it, have not quieted down enough to let go of all things and find yourself there

that is ok, you dont have to! you're already there! with me, with you, with no one. There is non-doing all the time! But in our dream, we are busy workers...

What can I tell you?

I can tell you that you are completely 100% right. Or I can tell you, you are wrong. I can agree with some, and disagree with some. All, or nothing. As the tides mix, the rivers pour out, and the oceans collide...

it's all so complex, and yet so simple! look around at everything in marvel... in delight... in despair... all the things of the world are born of your mind! yet, would they be there without you to give them meaning? would they exist at all without you to define them? would you exist?

it is the mountain and the valley, both and neither. You decide what to focus on. Is everything empty and illusory? Sure. Is everything real and meaningful? Sure. Do what brings you peace! Peace of the heart, peace of the mind. You focus in... and see, you play with and do. But then, you can pull back and see not, do not, and rest in peace. There are all things, and there are no things.

A master moves beyond the mundane imagery of the mind, breaks it down into its constituents, and from it is liberated from the idea of one way, this or that. He seeks to understand and know how the waves propagate, how they crash and collide. By stripping all meaning of everything, by removing all forms, by questioning all that has come before him and finding the emptiness in all. Then, with focus, with insight gained from mindfulness and concentration, he learns of the ways of things; free from his own mind, his own body, he moves back into them, with a keen eye, a watchful heart. With the curiousness of a baby, but the wisdom of an elder, he seeks to follow the seed, from sprout to budding flower. In all things, and can then work within the body and mind, within the labeling, never quite conforming again, never quite giving up his freedom, but moving through our space carefully, disturbing as least as possible. Then mountain is mountain, valley is valley.

You see, you are halfway there, and you are fighting every bit of it, because you see it as empty, as illusory, as imagination. It is the non-acceptance of your own imagination which speaks out in every word you spill, that you miss the point. There is a path, and then there is no path. There is something vague, then there is nothing, then there is everything.

No one wise taught to think of the world as non real. They just taught not to get caught up in its tides to drown before you can see past your own ignorance.

Seeing the emptiness in all things is the first step in respecting all things, in understanding all things divine. It is the stripping away of your own delusions that allow you to see the truth, the truth that subtly hidden right here. All else is put there in front of you by life, by body, by mind, by others, by what you think is YOU.

they might tell you a lot, but listen to your own self, your true self, which is spoken in all things. LIVE, LIVE FULLY, DANCE, DANCE WITHOUT SHAME, SING AND CRY, suffer, joy, anger, love, shout and be silent. They are all within you, but be them with full action, full attention, full beingness, that is paying respect to the life that you are, and not bending your knee to anything, even your own mind.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: Bluesma

I'm just going to offer some opinions. Please don't see it as disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Your ideas are quite important to me, being that they help me refine my own concepts.

No problem- that is one the great things about us all being different individuals- contrast.

First, I don't believe there is such thing as no stimulus. The body is stimulated the entire time it is alive. Whether one finds a quite place or a loud one should make no spiritual difference.

Okay. The question of whether there could be very subtle external input even in environments which seem quiet and still could rationally be posed. Perhaps even in an isolation tank, some sort of external stimulus could exist which is beyond our ability to pick up with devices?

In light of that, perhaps I'd change my statements to something more precise- a lack of complex concepts being expressed- the stimulus from a tv is feeding out opinions, views, values, and other notions which have a very different nature than, say, the sound of a stream gurgling, or a the crow of a rooster.

I do not necessarily believe in a tabula rasa or blank slate. We are equipped with an entirely unique body upon birth and it governs how, what and why we learn. A man born without sight will learn and grow differently, as will people with a medley of medical conditions, environmental factors and so on. Minds differ because bodies differ. We do not all start of with the exact same blank slate, and I think the idea certainly untenable, although it has become a dogma.

OH! I suspect you have misunderstood me- I don't believe we start with a blank slate in that sense! (I even suspect certain memories and associations might be genetically passed on to offspring).
I meant a temporary blank slate experience- in which we "observe" the action of concept association and meanings happening inside... but suddenly as observer, the experience is of being separated from all that, which is felt as being "nothing" then. If I am not my meanings, concepts, associations, then I am nothing. There is nothing left but the body. THIS is what I have tried to express to you before, in how my spiritual path led me to ground myself and get in touch with the physical world- I went as far as I could and found- nothing. There was just my body, and the world surrounding it, and the interplay between us.



I find the question I posed more difficult to answer than I would expect.
For a very long time, I would agree with it- then came to the same conclusion you did- it becomes resentfulness, passive aggressivity, and even a self rightious sense of superiority ("I am spiritually superior to them"). < That felt rather disingenuous.

I moved to a moderate position- to state my opinions or perceptions in face of the drama , without anger. If you aren't repressing your thoughts to the event unfolding, it is much easier to not feel much emotion about it.
I found this rather effective in what I wanted to create in the immediate- an end to the drama. It really just shuts people down. They don't get the emotional exchange they were hoping for, but they got your attention. They feel a bit confused because the attention is not in the form they had expected.
That seemed to work for me- responding to the exterior, acting, but consciously controlled.

Then I was faced with the long term effects of that, which started to make me wonder....
What I found is that my entourage feels uncomfortably detached from me. As if I fail to "connect" with them. I am asocial. I feel totally a part of the group, but they, however, feel I keep to myself and refuse contact and bonding.
Not only that, I am a party pooper- putting an end to all the interplays and bonding of others around. I create a rotten ambiance, turning the whole thing into some intellectual level that is without emotion.

It seems that for some people, that is only done through emotions- and any emotions will do, negative, positive, whatever. Our thoughts and perceptions separate us (that contrast is always there, even if we share some similar, there will always be differences, as you point out). Emotions are what we have in common though. It is what passes between us on even subconscious levels, it is the innate reactions of the body step in. It is where our social animal takes over.

I was raised in an environment which de-valued the "animal" part of us- which seeks things like dominance or submission, defense of physical borders, reproduction and territorial rights. I was conditioned to repress that part of the body in favor of conscious choices of response. To not do so is not "civilized", it is not "spiritually enlightened".

Yet I find myself in a culture that values the opposite now- social exchange is supposed to be a play of these automatic reflexes of emotion (hence the reputation of the french to be rude or unkind). It can be observed that a french person can step on your toe, and then berate you violently for having your toe in his/her way.

What I also observed is that where I would quietly await their apology before they explode at me, a french person with the squashed toe would have yelled right away, opening the exchange of emotions.

The other might respond with a similar aggressive response, but only as an acknowledgement of the first persons emotions, validating them. "I pick up your anger/aggressivity; it impacts me. I have joined you in your emotional experience. " The tone suddenly drops for both then and it becomes a bonding experience, in which the apologies do come, and then they are friends. They will go on to begin talking about who they are, where they are from, if they might know of people or places in common.

If you don't acknowledge/validate their emotion, they feel as if you do not perceive their existence, and they cannot perceive yours. That is rather frustrating for them.

This is on topic for me because what it comes down to is a view as each of us being our body- not our mind. The mind is like this useless masterbatory action that just isn't of any use in social exchange. Nobody cares what you think; what you feel, what kinds of automatic, physiological process is going on in you is what you are in the moment.
You don't share that, you aren't sharing yourself. You aren't engaging in the world, or in relations. At all.

I find myself at a strange crossroads- I value my mind, my thoughts, my perceptions! I value those of others, (whether we agree or not, they are like landscapes to visit and admire).

But if all that is just meaningless, not only in essence but to those around me,
And I am reduced to just a body, with automatic reflexes evolved over many generations,
then I feel..... bored. Why do I have parts of my brain capable of ( and always active in) conscious awareness and things like meaning creation, if there is no use for it???

If you see yourself that way, why do you bother writing out and posting for others to see your world in a nutshell?
(this is not a challenge, nor an insult- it is a sincere curiosity just floating along with this masturbatory activity...)

originally posted by: Bluesma

But if all that is just meaningless, not only in essence but to those around me,
And I am reduced to just a body, with automatic reflexes evolved over many generations,
then I feel..... bored. Why do I have parts of my brain capable of ( and always active in) conscious awareness and things like meaning creation, if there is no use for it???

The body and the mind (just thoughts arising) are experienced by you - you are the awareness in which they occur.
There is no use to any of it really - but instead of trying to get meaning and usage out of existence why not just see the beauty of it all just appearing to exist. I once read that 'universe' literally means 'the one unfolding'.

The body (body is no more than sensation) and the thoughts just happen to appear in the waking state - you are not actually 'doing' anything - everything is just happening and you are the witness.

originally posted by: Aphorism
The body is stimulated the entire time it is alive. Whether one finds a quite place or a loud one should make no spiritual difference.

It is not that the 'body' is stimulated the entire time of it's life - it may seem that way but if you examine what is really happening and look at it slightly differently - there always appears to be something happening - a sensation, a thought, an appearance is seen - constantly there appears to be something.
The screen of awareness is always full of what is actually happening.

Take yourself off to where nothing is actually happening (as little stimulus as possible/meditation) and it may be noticed that thoughts and sensations continue to happen. Those that sit down quietly might notice at some point that all things (including all thought, all sensation, all feeling, all perceptions) are moving through them but that they are not 'doing' them.
It may be discovered that there is no one actually 'doing' anything. Then 'you' will be free and instantly everything will also be freed. All is seen to be arising unconditionally and no one can be to blame for anything. That does not mean that anger or any other emotion does not appear - anything and everything can and does appear but it does not belong to anyone.
Sitting in meditation one is aware of how thoughts believed (bought into) cause the body to react. After a while thoughts pass by and cause no disturbance in the body - they are not taken personally or believed - in fact it is like someone has left the radio on in the next room. When the thoughts stop disturbing the body and there is harmony within - then there is harmony without - you take the weather with you everywhere you go.

All that moves is that which is moving - when you find that you are the stillness in which all is moving you will know a peace which surpasses all understanding - no matter what appears to be happening.

a reply to: Itisnowagain


I quite simply, disagree. I have already stated this with you many times, in many threads, you know my position on that.

I can stop giving meaning consciously right now, all that would have as effect is that my perception and experience would continually repeat the meanings and associations I have right now. Things would not cease to have meaning for me, they would simply not evolve or change in meaning. I would just be on a re-circulate mode.

The actions I experience as coming from me now, were pre-programmed by me in the past. If I choose to just let go and let happen from now on- I will continue on the response system I have currently and developed- to respond to emotional drama by expressing observations, without any emotional engagement.

I worked hard to make that a conditioned reflex and it shall stay such, unless I decide to change it. It did not come about by hazard, it was not the automatic reflex I had long ago.

Underneath the successive reflexes I chose and developed, there was the reflexes my anscestors developed for me, and I was born with- which yes, I could have kept. I could have let a person who has an angry look on their voice be percieved as threat and predator and kept the reflex to make a shrill scream, and advance with arms raised.

But even staying within the base preprogrammed behaviors and meanings, I cannot be observer or experiencer.
Such emotional plays wipe out that part of the brain. You will not find yourself taking joy in the pleasure of the world with the hormones of fear, and attack, running through your veins. Those hormones shut down those areas of brain.

Being "tortured" as you put it, is the result of limiting your experiences to those shaped by the subconscious without ever daring to explore and create new response and perception.

It is God being repressed from exploring the act of creating.

originally posted by: Bluesma
It is God being repressed from exploring the act of creating.

There is only the appearance of the present - which is the manifestation of God.
WHO could repress existence??

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: Bluesma
It is God being repressed from exploring the act of creating.

There is only the appearance of the present - which is the manifestation of God.
WHO could repress existence??

The act of creating is an aspect of existence, to repress the desire to create is not to repress existence.
The aspect of God that you are (your particular form and body) can choose to not actively create, it doesn't matter- the aspect of God that desires to experience active creation will do so through it's other forms, like me.

You can sit back and passively appreciate the manifestation we create.

You wrote earlier "Hope you get it right this time." I have had it right, for me and what I desired to experience. It's always right, until it isn't, and desire for change arises (or "appears", if the words are very important to you).
Change doesn't mean "wrong" it just means that at this time, change is happening, and I have the wonderful and exciting chance to experience choosing the route which that change will go.

I find joy in that. I understand if you don't. I also do not enjoy crossword puzzles, but what kind of an idiot would I be to continually go find people who enjoy them and try to convince them that they don't have to go through all that meaningless brainwork? That they can be freed from crossword puzzles, and not have to do them anymore, by realizing that they are meaningless and to do them is in vain?

I respect your choice of experience, and you will again claim that the actions appearing from your fingers on that keyboard aren't you, you didn't choose them, they just happened. Ok. Great. Glad you are enjoying that. I guess I don't feel the desire appearing to do that sort of thing.

a reply to: Bluesma

I was raised in an environment which de-valued the "animal" part of us- which seeks things like dominance or submission, defense of physical borders, reproduction and territorial rights. I was conditioned to repress that part of the body in favor of conscious choices of response. To not do so is not "civilized", it is not "spiritually enlightened".

I suppose that I was raised in a different environment. I grew up quite rural and far from civilization. The “animal” instincts were cultivated. Being that a keen instinct was always necessary for survival, whether it was against the weather or protecting our animals from predators, I think I have learned to accept the instincts as indicators of something.

I would agree that within the boundaries of civilization, these “animal” instincts may not have as much use, that culture and custom does much of the work for us. Now that I consider myself a cosmopolitan, I have come to learn that emotions are simply what is left of these instincts, however under-utilized.

This is on topic for me because what it comes down to is a view as each of us being our body- not our mind. The mind is like this useless masterbatory action that just isn't of any use in social exchange. Nobody cares what you think; what you feel, what kinds of automatic, physiological process is going on in you iswhat you are in the moment.
You don't share that, you aren't sharing yourself. You aren't engaging in the world, or in relations. At all.

I find myself at a strange crossroads- I value my mind, my thoughts, my perceptions! I value those of others, (whether we agree or not, they are like landscapes to visit and admire).

But if all that is just meaningless, not only in essence but to those around me,
And I am reduced to just a body, with automatic reflexes evolved over many generations,
then I feel..... bored. Why do I have parts of my brain capable of ( and always active in) conscious awareness and things like meaning creation, if there is no use for it???

If you see yourself that way, why do you bother writing out and posting for others to see your world in a nutshell?
(this is not a challenge, nor an insult- it is a sincere curiosity just floating along with this masturbatory activity…)

You have touched on the premise of this series. The questions: can all spiritual values up until now be meaningless? And if so, can we still be spiritual?

These are dangerous questions, and as you rightfully point out, such a story that states all spiritual values up until now are meaningless, all there is is physicality and chaotic movement, isn’t as exciting or romantic as as other stories.

But can we make it more romantic? (Forgive my rhetorical rambling; I like to write) Can we not bring back what we’ve for so long called “dust”, “sin”, “the flesh”, “the world”, “the body”, “dukha”, “impermanence”, and make it holy? the exact same way we declare our superstitions holy? Is every single day not salvation and divine, that we must imagine that salvation and divinity is somewhere or something no one could ever see with their living eyes? Are we simply unable to witness what we are? that we myst imagine what we are? that we are some immaterial and gaseous wraith, an awareness, a consciousness, a mind, a soul, a paradox trapped in an organic bag of chemicals? Is life living with the eyes closed?

Or am I wrong? Could I somehow be spiritually un-evolved? That might be the case.

My reasoning is this, and forgive my rambling. I look at my family and see something more complex, intricate and beautiful than any parable ever written, infinitely more powerful than any so-called spiritual idea ever conceived. I think the same thing of a tree. Every single individual is like that. In fact, the human being is where every single spiritual idea comes from. All it takes is to look someone in the eyes and touch her skin, to see no meaning, no purpose, no spirit, but the exact source where meaning, purpose and spirituality comes from, and the exact source that inspires meaning, purpose and spirituality in us. A human cannot be meaningless, purposeless or un-spiritual if she tried.

You’re right to say that we are not quite witness to someone else’s inner world. We cannot occupy the exact same perspective. We are different bodies of different circumstances. For that, they are objects. But though we cannot view the world through their perspective, we can view the perspective itself. We can view the subject as it acts like an object, which can be confirmed by watching any human being. There goes a perspective. It stands there. What that body expresses, what that body does, how it acts will alter the universe.

I know, the view that we are objects sounds awful. Being objectified sounds awful. But it’s true. We are objects in another’s experience. What now? Your previous thread rang true for me and led me to thinking. We should learn to be objects.

I love my body; I love being a body. It’s always where I am. I am in love with living. The idea that I am my body is simple to me philosophically. What more do I need to explain or explain away? It is how I am able to climb mountains and surf. I don’t see myself as “just a body, with automatic reflexes evolved over many generations”. It is a way of describing the human being that just doesn’t work, and makes the entirety of human beings look sort of ridiculous, like hairless apes. And some would see themselves this way if they weren’t, as a hairless ape themselves, able to add a “soul” or “mind” to the equation. Apes indeed. Adding a “soul” or “mind” isn’t that much more aesthetically pleasing either, nor does it have any real practical use save for metaphor. Besides, the view that we must have a soul or a spirit, or the body is nothing but a bag of flesh and meat is completely unreasonable and based on nothing at all. All the parts are there, everything is moving as it should. What more could we add?

To some, it is just a body. To others, a corpse with a soul. To me it is the entirety. The possibilities of what relationships can be had with it; the possibilities of what can come out of it; the possibilities of what it can do.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

It is not that the 'body' is stimulated the entire time of it's life - it may seem that way but if you examine what is really happening and look at it slightly differently - there always appears to be something happening - a sensation, a thought, an appearance is seen - constantly there appears to be something.
The screen of awareness is always full of what is actually happening.

This “screen of awareness”, consciousness, or whatever, is no more than a phantom, itsnowagain. There is no screen. The “screen of awareness” is your body, and it is the only thing capable of feeling sensations, thinking thoughts, and perceiving. It is not full of anything but itself. I believe abstracting the body into concepts such as awareness, mind, consciousness, etc. leads one absolutely nowhere but away from what one actually is. This is where you and I fundamentally disagree.

Take yourself off to where nothing is actually happening (as little stimulus as possible/meditation) and it may be noticed that thoughts and sensations continue to happen. Those that sit down quietly might notice at some point that all things (including all thought, all sensation, all feeling, all perceptions) are moving through them but that they are not 'doing' them.

If I am my body, and if I do not limit myself to some conceptual nothing somewhere within the body, then yes, I am indeed doing them. Thought and perception does not continue when one’s body limits thought and perception. Death, injury, illness, even meditation proves this—thought and perception alters when the body alters. This is because thought and perception is the body.

It may be discovered that there is no one actually 'doing' anything. Then 'you' will be free and instantly everything will also be freed. All is seen to be arising unconditionally and no one can be to blame for anything. That does not mean that anger or any other emotion does not appear - anything and everything can and does appear but it does not belong to anyone.

We are to blame for what we do. Everyone is. We are responsible. We act by choice and volition and on our own accord. As I told you before, high-ranking zen buddhists (Suzuki) taught the very same doctrine to Japanese soldiers so that they could disassociate from the act of killing another human being, that the bayonet as it sunk into another’s skin was simply a part of the cosmic dance and it should simply be allowed to happen. Such a doctrine is only an excuse, so one does not have to take responsibility for anything.

Sitting in meditation one is aware of how thoughts believed (bought into) cause the body to react. After a while thoughts pass by and cause no disturbance in the body - they are not taken personally or believed - in fact it is like someone has left the radio on in the next room. When the thoughts stop disturbing the body and there is harmony within - then there is harmony without - you take the weather with you everywhere you go.

All that moves is that which is moving - when you find that you are the stillness in which all is moving you will know a peace which surpasses all understanding - no matter what appears to be happening.

Try sitting in a war zone, or a disaster area, or amidst the lowest poverty, where people, the land, the animals and everything is suffering and speak these words to them. Your doctrine works for someone who suffers only mild inconveniences—a stressful day at work, a personal relationship, social anxiety. Meanwhile, we head towards preventable extinction-level ecological and social destruction. We cannot disassociate from that, for every human being has a hand in this. Personal peace and self-gratification comes after.

originally posted by: Aphorism

(Forgive my rhetorical rambling; I like to write)

Only if you can forgive mine, for I too enjoy that and appreciate the stimulation to do so that I get from another rambling! I enjoy reading your thoughts.

We cannot directly experience the thoughts and emotions going on inside a person.

We can, however create more or less accurate "copies" of (what I am calling) their internal experience, through gathering together the views, values, beliefs, etc. that form the perimeters.

An actor will research deeply their character, find out what their past childhood experiences were, how they responded to those, what beliefs do they have about themselves, the world, and their place in it....
They find out as much detail as they can about how the character feels about different things and people, how their own temperament reacts to certain stimulus.

If all that isn't written up already, they create it. In that way they create an alternate persona which has a measure of stability- even if they must turn to improvisation, they can "stay in character" and their responses will continue to come out in a spontaneously integral way.

When we listen to anothers thoughts, we begin forming that internal character, which changes the object into a "person" for us.

The mental object now has it's own perception it's own feelings, it's own reactions. -That we can predict, and be recognize- we can anticipate what will make them feel happy or sad.

This is the "benefit" we find in trying to move beyond the simple objectivity. In relations it allows for something other than the total bumbling attempts "Oh, you didn't like that? Sorry I didn't know you wouldn't like that, I was hoping to give you pleasure, and since I get pleasure from this... I just assumed....."

THis is the benefit of long term love relationships, for example- where the interactions seem to go into a mode of smooth understanding- less mistakes, less misunderstandings, a connection that we start to feel "goes beyond the physical and is almost mystical. We can read each others minds."

I am fine with the idea that all thought originates only in the brain, but as long as it is there, why not try to create more efficient relations and exchanges with people through such process?

I am not able to think well right now, so I am perhaps not making sense, or being self contradictory. I have to go to work and it's five AM. I shall reflect upon what you have written.

Back from work, I wish I could edit my post from this morning- I was not clear yet on what was going on in my head.

I get your appreciation of yourself as "body". I guess that, the problem lies, for me, in the fact that each body is different, because it has had different experiences, has different conditioned responses to exterior stimuli.

So, in getting back to the concept of civilisation..... aspects of culture, like Religion, set up a shared framework of ideas, beliefs about the world, ethics, which provide a "shortcut" to getting to know each other and interact effectively. I guess that is where the teaching about the "inferior" reactions of body (in contrast to the superior responses coming from mind) has it's applications.

If a group of people have decided together "we shall consider this _____ as good, and that _____as bad" then you get conformity they can each depend upon. Even if individual experiences cause some disruption, the person will make effort to reprogram according to the collective belief system. Then they each pretty much know what the other wants or not, will appreciate or not. All exchange amongst them is facilitated.

I guess my problem where I am is that it is a much more socialist culture, and much more conformist- they all had the same education, they all share the same values and references- they don't need to talk about their individual preferences or thoughts to understand each other. They can run on subconscious reflexes at this point and things go smoothly between them.

It won't work for me though. I don't get where they are going or why and they don't get me either.

It seems to me like the whole idea of a soul or mind which is separate from the body (and superior) allows everyone to share focus.

a reply to: Bluesma

Only in recent years has spirituality been taken seriously outside of religious context.