It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

"The LORD is my Shepherd..."

page: 5
3
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 10:06 PM
link   
a reply to: jmdewey60

"God us uncreated.
Nature is a product of the universe, which itself is created."

How can you be sure that God is not a part of nature?

I call myself a scientist, and if you can convince me of the reality of God,

then that God is the essence of nature.




posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 10:35 PM
link   

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: jmdewey60

"God us uncreated.
Nature is a product of the universe, which itself is created."

How can you be sure that God is not a part of nature?

I call myself a scientist, and if you can convince me of the reality of God,

then that God is the essence of nature.


Not the essence; God IS nature in the sense it allowed/created an environment for all forms of flora and fauna to thrive. "God" is not a PHYSICAL BEING at all; it is just an intelligent energetic field of varying positives/negatives/neutrals that allows (within it) all of its creations or potentials to express themselves (thrive or self destruct).



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 02:59 AM
link   
a reply to: vethumanbeing

God IS nature in the sense it allowed/created an environment for all forms of flora and fauna to thrive.
What you are describing does not fit the definition of "God", so you are just substituting something else for God, basically saying that there is no God.



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 03:05 AM
link   
a reply to: Diderot

. . . if you can convince me of the reality of God,

then that God is the essence of nature.
What sort of logic is this?
Are you sure you are a scientist?
Do you realize what "if/then" means?
You are saying is that if there is a God, then it is your theoretical view of what a God substitute is.
Why bother with proof since you already have decided that any God is a non-god.


edit on 17-8-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 10:42 AM
link   
a reply to: Diderot


The love of Humanity is no less important
than the love of God.
Virtuous love is supreme.


This is contrary to Biblical principles. We are to love God and obey Him...not to love humanity. God first..

As to me and my house we shall serve the Lord...from the book of Joshua. When you go down the road of Humanitarianism or Humanism...you quickly begin a substitution scheme to the glory of men and man's tradition.
This is historically demonstrable.





The pursuit of the enrichment of humanity
is the essence of humanitarianism.

Any possible fault, sin, error, or iniquity that you might suggest
is a violation and rejection on the spirit of human virtue.


The knowledge of a Believer is that Humanitarianism is a violation of he Spirit of God in that is glories man and man's traditions.

How do I know this...because men... historically when glorifying themselves ..to the glory of men ..always return back to rampant runaway open sexuality of all kinds. And they try to declare this conduct as Enlightened, Illuminated, Modern, Sophist.

This is not a pattern of God ...but the pattern of another god and another religion. For God's people are never to define who and what they are by their sexuality..but define themselves by the God who lives in them 24/7.

For anyone who can still think for themselves..knows that people are much more than sex and sexuality. Nature worship always tends towards this Whoredom...spiritual first and then physical whoredom.

Rampant runaway, open sexuality is a fingerprint of the Ancient fertility religions making a comeback among logical reasonable, Illuminated, Enlightened men. Noting new under the sun here..as Solomon aptly stated.

And this ancient religion is being promoted by leadership all across the board ..in western nations today....and for lucre...to put people on the string for votes...while leaving them Biblically and historically ignorant and untutored in what it means.

God's people never define who and what they are by their sexuality..nor demand that others accept them on such an basis. God's people define themselves by the God living in them 24/7. Not by their human traits.
This is known information's but information's of which I never see your or others attempting to narrow down in lieu of Humanitarian greatness. To God and His people..what you describe is abomination to those who know what it historically is. It is Whoredom.


This is one of the ways I know what Humanitarianism is..and it's pedigree..going way back into history.



Nature is not dystopian.

We began as feral savages, and we have barely progressed.

But we have progressed.

In time we shall become the creatures that we should be.




Really!!??

How do you explain this nugget of historical study??

en.wikipedia.org...

Specifically this line from the article on R. J. Rummel's Democide


His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the actions of people working for governments than have died in battle.


Note the time frame that this researcher is describing...the last century..the last 100 years. That there have been some 262 million deaths of people ..outside of war..not in war..but in peacetime...In Addition to wars!!

My point in this is that the lasts 100 years is the time of the great Humanitarians. The time of men of logic, reason, enlightenment, sophists. The Illuminated ones. In the last 100 years people have been killed off at a faster rate and more of them that in the centuries past. And by their own governments..not by enemies of their governments..but by their own governments.

The last 100 years is also the time of science...not men religious after God and the Bible. But the time of men who are against the Bible and what it states. Natural men.

One seldom ever hears anyone teach this to ordinary people for their understanding and knowledge.

I will also add...that a great many of these people killed in the last 100 years have been killed in the anti god nations..Russia and China. But there have been mass killings in other nations as well..but it is interesting that so many have been killed in the anti god nations...where the limits on government of the God of the Bible have been removed in favor of the logic and reason of men.

This history is also why I am not in favor of Humanitarianism or Humanism. We seldom are told the bigger picture of what has happened historically. Neither by our News Media, Public education, nor by our leadership.
For when you know enough history ...you realize that leadership, public education, and the media are tied and connected at the hip. They will give you enough to function in a job..but not enough to function independently.


vethumanbeing,


Entitlement!? to what exactly; this is a game we play in the 3rd dimension as individualized human God aspects; none of this is real here on earth whether you like or not the REAL deal exists in the higher dimensions; this is just a mirror of it as an advanced school: training ground. I am confused by your use of the word humanitarian regarding my post. What or whom are you alluding to in what context?


Think about what you post here vethumanbeing. If none of this is real...why would you so obviously suffer angst over it?

You contradict yourself here.

If your logic and reason is the crux of reality ....I would say you are missing some cards in your deck and religion.

I do not go into a nuclear reactor with your kind of thinking. I will get myself and others hurt or killed. I need an accurate understanding of conditions..not this stuff you post of none of this is real.

When you see a highly contaminated sample being "Frisked out" you do not see, smell, or feel anything. But it is there and real. You can see the effects on the Geiger counter...and the needle moving and the alarms going off on a high count sample.

It is real..vethumanbeing...not imaginary.

This is also why for many of us we prefer to discipline our emotions..not cede to them. The very opposite of much about Humanism or Humanitarianism.
And for those of us disciplined in it....the Word teaches us to reason together..not to emote together.


Hope this helps.

Orangetom












edit on 17-8-2014 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 17 2014 @ 11:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: vethumanbeing

It's time to cut to the chase.

"If God showed his love to humanity to a 10th of the degree humanity trusts and loves IT (without questioning its being/existence) this would be one beautiful world (instead its based in chaos and yin/yang chance change). Virtuous love as you call it I would expand as being Love In Truth without question."

God has not shown and will not show his love for humanity.

It is up to us.

If there is no God,

That does not mean that we should not strive to be God-like?

What could be more noble than to seek perfection?





Diderot and vethumanbeing,

The Chaos you see is the fruit of Fallen Men. And as I pointed out under Democide..the chaos continues.

It is interesting to me that in the 1990s there was a genocide going on in Yugoslavia...for which the surrounding nations did nothing. They could not possibly be so uninformed or ignorant that they did not know what is going on.
This is interesting because these very continental nations and people are the very nations who try to foist off the blame game on the USA for every conceived world problem. These are the Humanitarian nations..on the continent.

I have long since gotten over my passion for Humanitarians...or for that matter ..the United Nations.

One of the lessons you see in the Bible as an index of fallen men and what they do ..how to find them..how to index or fingerprint them...is that they fill the land with violence.

You will find this description in several places through out the Olde Testament..."For they have filled the land with violence."




Diderot,


God has not shown and will not show his love for humanity.

It is up to us.

If there is no God,

That does not mean that we should not strive to be God-like?

What could be more noble than to seek perfection?





This ..your quote above ..is Lucifer's sermon. "It is all up to you...to us." IF this is so..than what difference does it make what happened on the Cross??

You are stating what Lucifer stated..."I will be like the most high!!" "I will sit in the congregation in the sides of the north."

Advancing by degrees in the wisdom of this world. Making myself perfect...seeking perfection by degrees of knowledge and wisdom of men...the traditions of men.

It is interesting to me as well....how many Believers cannot piece this together...the pattern under which you are operating.

But I knew this way back in yours and Vets postings. You both have just cleared this up for those who know..who can see hear and understand.


And by the way..I am not just picking on you here. For I have heard many so called Christian ministers make the same statement. "It's all up to you."

I can guarantee you that when I hear that from anyone including and especially a Christian Minister ..My ears and radar perk up immediately..for I know that this minister is preaching and teaching Lucifer's sermon.

For you see..this fingerprint has also infiltrated many so called Christian Churches. Most Believer's haven't a clue about it.
It ought not to be this way..but their ministers lie and deceive their own flocks.



Once again..hope this helps,

Orangetom



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 03:48 PM
link   
a reply to: jmdewey60

"What sort of logic is this?
Are you sure you are a scientist?
Do you realize what "if/then" means?
You are saying is that if there is a God, then it is your theoretical view of what a God substitute is.
Why bother with proof since you already have decided that any God is a non-god."

We all form our own logic and truth.

To me, if God is real, then God is a part of nature.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 04:13 PM
link   
a reply to: orangetom1999

Hello again Orangetom,

"This is contrary to Biblical principles. We are to love God and obey Him...not to love humanity. God first.."

I guess that it is a matter of my beliefs contrasted with yours.

Good people can, and do disagree.

"In time we shall become the creatures that we should be."

This is a personal statement of trust that I have accepted.

The path of reason has lead me to have faith that someday

Humanity will vanquish our savage nature.

Then we shall truly touch the hand of God.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 04:37 PM
link   
a reply to: orangetom1999

Dear Orangetom,

"This ..your quote above ..is Lucifer's sermon. "It is all up to you...to us." IF this is so..than what difference does it make what happened on the Cross??"

The meaning of the crucifixion of Jesus is of little or no consequence to legions of those who have walked this earth.

Our personal convictions are greeted with skepticism and contempt by a sea of humanity.

When we hold our truths to be inerrant, then we are guilty of hubris.

To be truly wise is to grow and learn from our considerable flaws.



posted on Aug, 18 2014 @ 05:02 PM
link   
a reply to: orangetom1999

Hello again, Orangetom,

I'd like to tell you a personal story and get your reaction.

A few years past, as my father was nearing the end of his life,

some of his fellow workers stopped by to offer their encouragement.

On occasion, one of these men would implore my father to seek forgiveness

and to accept Jesus Christ as his savior.

I saw the alarm in my father's eyes, and I gently ushered this man out.

This man was well intentioned, but he delivered no solace.

This is a man of God, but a wise man he is not.

My father's other friends were brilliant in their humanity and compassion.

We each have a moral duty to enrich humanity.



posted on Aug, 19 2014 @ 03:06 PM
link   

Hello again Orangetom,



"This is contrary to Biblical principles. We are to love God and obey Him...not to love humanity. God first.."



I guess that it is a matter of my beliefs contrasted with yours.




It is indeed a matter of your beliefs contrasted with mine. Which is why I stated we have different dieties....different religions..different belief systems.

If I want to know something about your religion..I look up "The Good god." The god who allows us to be our natural goodness selves. This wanabee...is named Lucifer. I can read about him in a book titled "Morals and Dogma" and other such books..by another author named Manley Palmer Hall.

Also reading the writings of a philosopher named Baruch Spinoza.







'

Good people can, and do disagree.


I don't consider myself a good person. I consider myself a fallen person. But good I am not. I would venture to state that I am far worse a person than are you.



"In time we shall become the creatures that we should be."

This is a personal statement of trust that I have accepted.

The path of reason has lead me to have faith that someday

Humanity will vanquish our savage nature.

Then we shall truly touch the hand of God.



Well Diderot..I don't think so. I don't think we will be advancing at all. If anything ..knowledge in many people only tends to more self justify their total depravity..to get many to think they are something they are not. And many of these types are now leaders.

One of the most savage and feral experiences I'v e had of note was to watch a bunch of women in the lobby outside of a ball room. They were watching the people entering to attend this gala affair. There were five of them in a group and I had gone to sit in that lobby to take a break from all the noise inside.

What I realized after a short observation was that I had the best seat in the place. These women were not observing the people per se..entering ..but the other women. They were giving them the once over...the quick furtive glance with the nod of approval or shake of disapproval.

I realized quickly that I was observing uncensored...raw...unfiltered...wildlife in it's natural habitat. Chickens establishing a pecking order in the barnyard. There was nothing civilized about it..it was wild..and feral and very judgemental the looks in the eyes of these women. I knew that two of these women had college degrees. Education profited them nothing here. Education did not change this wild and feral habit and conduct.

That was when I realized how uncivilized women could be..how wild and feral. They are just better at concealing it than most men ever will be. It was Savage...Diderot.

I can do the same thing with a very feminine man..and have so done. Little thinking going on ..mostly emoting with these.



The meaning of the crucifixion of Jesus is of little or no consequence to legions of those who have walked this earth.


Wow...that is a broad statement. It means a lot to those who are His. This is the difference in your's and mine starting point. The difference in your's and mine beliefs and religion.



When we hold our truths to be inerrant, then we are guilty of hubris.

To be truly wise is to grow and learn from our considerable flaws.


Than you should take another look at "Democide" in the time of Wise men..sophists, Illuminated, enlightened men.
The last 100 years of such men running things. The time of the great humanitarians.


As to your story..that is between your father and God..not between that fellow and your father. That fellow cannot forgive..nor get your father saved. That is between your father and God. It is his/your fathers business.

I do not bother speaking such to people I can determine are of another god and another faith. For I cannot save them. Not my job to save them..nor forgive them.
I leave them right where they are at. Much like all the women I did not choose..I left them right where they are or were.


By the way..see this line here In your post.



On occasion, one of these men would implore my father to seek forgiveness

and to accept Jesus Christ as his savior.


This to my understanding is where many so called Christian Churches...make error. A believer is "accepted" in the Blood.

They do not accept. The God I know is a choosing God..He chooses who are His. We do not choose. Chosen people do not choose or accept...they are chosen and accepted in the Blood..and not by themselves...but by His choice and acceptance.

This is the crux or difference in your's and my understandings.

Your position is ..It's up to us." Meaning we choose..we decide..we accept.

The God I know..does the deciding ..the accepting ..the choosing who are HIs and for His reasons.

Those guys telling your father to accept..were teaching and preaching your sermon and belief...in "Accepting."

This is what I meant in my last post where I stated that I catch it very quickly when a minister states..."Its all up to you."
Same sermon from a different god. Not the God I know from the Word.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom



edit on 19-8-2014 by orangetom1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 01:30 AM
link   

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: nenothtu

Hello nenothtu,

"There is no universal utopia - ALL is dystopian, and always will be, for as long as humans endure."

Correct; there is no universal utopia, but there is no universal dystopia.

Nature is not dystopian.

We began as feral savages, and we have barely progressed.

But we have progressed.

In time we shall become the creatures that we should be.



You are right - I stand corrected. Nothing is universal other than the universe, and nature is NOT dystopian - nature cares neither one way nor the other.

Life is what WE make of it, and I prefer to make my own insofar as is possible, rather than allowing "humanity" to make it for me... because, so far as I can tell, humanity has not been a resounding success so far.

While it's true that we have progressed, it's only been a technological progress, and the heart of humanity is still as it always has been, and always will be - we are, always have been, and always will be (until humanity meets it's extinction) "feral savages". We will never be "the creatures that we should be", because we already ARE the creatures that we should be. If we become something else, we will no longer be human, we will be... something else.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 07:56 AM
link   

originally posted by: Diderot
Few passages in the Bible tug at the heartstrings like this one:

~Psalms 23:1-6~

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
He leads me beside quiet waters, He restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness for His name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil, for You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Amen.

This is a powerful appeal to submission. “We shall not want” means that we shall not seek.
If the Lord is our Shepherd, then we are sheep. This seems fitting, since Man is born of sin,
and is unworthy of the Grace that God bestows.

What does God expect of us? As lambs, our submission shall be expressed in silence.


The Lord is my weapon, and you shall not falter. You make me lay waste to Satans desciples, you lead me in the battle trenches. You restore my ammunition. Your blood covers me as protection on the path to battle. And though I march towards the stronghold under heavy fire through the valley of the shadow of the dead, I will fear no heathen. For the Lord is with me. Your presence and your word they comfort me. You prepare a command center before me, in the presence of devils. While your mercy for me endures, I will show no mercy for Satans desciples unto death. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

edit on 21-8-2014 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-8-2014 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 12:27 PM
link   

originally posted by: Diderot

We each have a moral duty to enrich humanity.



What is your authority for making that statement on my behalf? I ask because, as far as I know, I have no such duty, moral or otherwise. The only duty I have to humanity is to not leave it any worse at my hand than it was when I found it - nothing about improving or enriching it, just not making it any worse. If other folks want to make it worse (and they DO, on a daily basis), That's on them - my responsibility ends where my ability to control actions does, and that ends at MY actions.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 01:05 PM
link   

originally posted by: orangetom1999

Diderot: "The meaning of the crucifixion of Jesus is of little or no consequence to legions of those who have walked this earth.

Orangetom1999: Wow...that is a broad statement. It means a lot to those who are His. This is the difference in your's and mine starting point. The difference in your's and mine beliefs and religion.


While it is indeed a broad statement, as befits advice for those who tread the broad path, Diderot is in no way incorrect in his statement here. The crucifixion, it meanings, mechanisms, and results, have literally NO consequence for entire Legions of those who have walked Earth. None whatsoever. They are what some folks call "Natural Man", and will go on their natural way until they meet their natural end, and that will be the end of that, for them.

There is no need for them to worry over the crucifuxion at all, since it has no bearing on them whatsoever.






By the way..see this line here In your post.


"On occasion, one of these men would implore my father to seek forgiveness

and to accept Jesus Christ as his savior."

This to my understanding is where many so called Christian Churches...make error. A believer is "accepted" in the Blood.

They do not accept. The God I know is a choosing God..He chooses who are His. We do not choose. Chosen people do not choose or accept...they are chosen and accepted in the Blood..and not by themselves...but by His choice and acceptance.

This is the crux or difference in your's and my understandings.

Your position is ..It's up to us." Meaning we choose..we decide..we accept.

The God I know..does the deciding ..the accepting ..the choosing who are HIs and for His reasons.

Those guys telling your father to accept..were teaching and preaching your sermon and belief...in "Accepting."

This is what I meant in my last post where I stated that I catch it very quickly when a minister states..."Its all up to you."
Same sermon from a different god. Not the God I know from the Word.



I'm in general agreement with you here, although I would have worded some parts of it differently had it been a statement from myself... still, I agree with it in principle. That is precisely the problem I have with many of the so called "free will" doctrines - they imply, and at times outright state, that man must give God a hand if God is to be a god, and do god things, and further state that mere mortals can control God, lead him around by the nose to do their own bidding, and thwart God's plans by just throwing their little spanners into the gears of it, or simply not plugging it in to the "power grid" (i.e. man power beats god power, and they aren't allowing their god any of either one), thereby bringing it to nought.

Yeah.

That'll be the day.

Of what good is a god that a mere human can control? Just what kind of a god would that be, and who would need one? In other words, why have a god that YOU are more powerful than?

I have the same problem, the same general principle, with the so-called "jihadists" - what good is a god that has to have YOU, a mere mortal, do his killing for him? My God can do his own killing - I don't save God, it works the other way 'round.



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 01:17 PM
link   
a reply to: nenothtu

Do you believe Muslims worship the same God as Christians? This begs the question since I don`t see any Christians deep frying anybody on a stick who refuses to convert.
edit on 21-8-2014 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 01:46 PM
link   

originally posted by: BlackManINC
a reply to: nenothtu

Do you believe Muslims worship the same God as Christians? This begs the question since I don`t see any Christians deep frying anybody on a stick who refuses to convert.


It appears that you are failing to make the distinction between "muslims" and "jihadis" or "islamists". One is religious, the other political, and the gods of the two are NOT the same.

The jihadis only try to make the muslims - and, apparently, you - THINK so.

For the record, the "crusaders" god and the "christians" God are not the same deity, either... one is religious, the other political. I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which. A hint would be to ask one's self which deity of the two demanded that adherents deep fry their percieved opponents on a stick for not getting with the program...



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 03:15 PM
link   

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: BlackManINC
a reply to: nenothtu

Do you believe Muslims worship the same God as Christians? This begs the question since I don`t see any Christians deep frying anybody on a stick who refuses to convert.


It appears that you are failing to make the distinction between "muslims" and "jihadis" or "islamists". One is religious, the other political, and the gods of the two are NOT the same.

The jihadis only try to make the muslims - and, apparently, you - THINK so.

For the record, the "crusaders" god and the "christians" God are not the same deity, either... one is religious, the other political. I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which. A hint would be to ask one's self which deity of the two demanded that adherents deep fry their percieved opponents on a stick for not getting with the program...



Okay can you explain what exactly is the difference between the Muslim God and that of the of the Jihadist beyond just a simple "religious" and "political" statement? And is this the same God that Christians worship? Just like Jihadist would like us to believe they worship the same God of the Muslims, so to do the Muslims also claim to worship the same God of Christianity, when their own "holy" books make it very clear to me that they don`t. If they really do worship the same God as me, then I shouldn't have to pay a special tax in some of those Islamic run nations for identifying myself as Christian, because it shouldn't matter to them either way. Personally, I believe they want us to believe they worship the same God of Christianity because they want to appear as a religion of peace and tolerance when their actions show otherwise.
edit on 21-8-2014 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-8-2014 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 05:30 PM
link   
a reply to: orangetom1999

Dear Orangetom, Hello again and thanks for the thoughtful reply.

"I don't consider myself a good person. I consider myself a fallen person. But good I am not. I would venture to state that I am far worse a person than are you."

On this point I would disagree, and I find my disagreement to be somewhat embarrassing.

On the scale of goodness and moral integrity, I do not look past the fulcrum and observe you on the other side.

Let me simply state that I am not so good and you are not so bad.

It is my understanding that you measure yourself by the expectations of your God.

I measure myself by the standards of my personal philosophy that define good and evil.

Trust me; I am not far better that you.

I am vain, conceited, distrustful, avaricious, slothful, gluttonous, and apathetic.

Maybe we are both bad people!

But I am sure that when the day of reckoning arrives,

we shall be judged by what we gave to the world.

God put the world in our hands to make it a better place.





I



posted on Aug, 21 2014 @ 06:25 PM
link   
a reply to: nenothtu

Hello again Mr. N,

"We will never be "the creatures that we should be", because we already ARE the creatures that we should be. If we become something else, we will no longer be human, we will be... something else."

Sorry to disagree, but we are a far cry from what we should be.

We should be, and can be, an overwhelming force to improve the quality of life on Earth.

We seem to think that we are superior to all the other life forms of this planet.

We shall rise above the roots of our primitive nature.

Then we humans shall honor our true potential.



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join