Chinese and Russian Radars On Track To See Through U.S. Stealth

a reply to: mbkennel

And while a long wave radar won't tell you exactly where, it reduces the area to look from a major city, to a football field.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

US warfighting doctrine has layers to its layers. Its one reason that some kind of sister for the current stealth fleet makes so much sense.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Idiot at the back door forgot the suppressor,MARINES ,ever since JASOC let 'em in.

a reply to: cavtrooper7


It's cool, over some splainin', I gave em all some 211. they all chilled out. were good now. but, yeah. The things us ATS'rs gotta put up with.

originally posted by: boomer135
Came across this story today which I'm sure is gonna have the F-35 opponents drooling. However, since on ATS we deny ignorance, its only fair to report both sides of a story. I see this story being a leap frog to building the sr-72 in bigger numbers. It could very well be what this nation needs to advance the hypersonic flight window.

Seeing Stealth

A growing trend in Russian and Chinese radar could make U.S. stealth fighters easier to see and — more importantly — easier to target for potential adversaries, a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News.

U.S. fighters — like the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) — are protected by stealth technology optimized for higher frequency targeting radars but not for lower frequency radars.

Until now a focus on higher frequencies have not been a problem because low frequency radars have traditionally been unable to generate “weapons quality tracks.”

JSF and the F-22 are protected from higher frequencies in the Ku, X, C and parts of the S bands. But both jets can be seen on enemy radars operating in the longer wavelengths like L, UHF and VHF.

In other words, Russian and Chinese radars can generally detect a stealth aircraft but not clearly enough to give an accurate location to a missile

But that is starting to change.

“Acquisition and fire control radars are starting to creep down the frequency spectrum,” a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News on Monday.
With improved computing power, low frequency radars are getting better and better at discerning targets more precisely.

stealth made it combat debut in 1991 gulf war as the silver bullet against Iraqi AD (it was deployed in Panama conflict but that shouldnt count as the PDF didint have AD)

since 1991 it would be safe to say other countries already focusing on developing counter stealth technology. It would be foolish to put everything in the "stealth" basket so to speak.

a combination of Stealth and EW/ECM should be the focus for modern military air power. It wont be much suprise if the invincibility of stealth was broken in the next major war by great powers, after all men have been developing weapons and countermeasures since the days of stick and stones..

originally posted by: buntalanlucu

originally posted by: boomer135

"a combination of Stealth and EW/ECM should be the focus for modern military air power."


Hmmmm....Stealth + EW....hmmmmmmm.....wouldn't that be pretty cool. Hey Zaph! call your contacts! Tell them Stealth + EW and to get cracking on it.


"It wont be much suprise if the invincibility of stealth was broken in the next major war by great powers, ...."

And, I wouldn't be surprised if they discover their concept of stealth is far behind and sorely lacking. I wouldn't be surprised if THEY are surprised though.

Also, when all else fails Muscle. Not the kind that comes from a billion tanks and fighter planes. The kind that can deliver express packages anywhere in the world faster then dominos can deliver a pizza. (ok...ok faster than Wang's Chinese food can deliver on a busy friday night...90 minutes or less!) Shove the package down their throat. Too fast , too high, too soon, can't stop it. Sometimes you have to go the other route when taking down your enemies. If you think stealth won't do it you go for the opposite approach.

"Sorry guys, we're going with option "b" for this mission, stand down." (A bunch of ninjas look crestfallen and re sheath their swords and shuffles out of room. Last ninja looks back at the general with a 'please boss, we can do it' look on his face, realizes it's futile turns around closes door.)

"Gonzales!!!! Get in here!" (zing!!!! Speedy Gonzales rockets into the room comes to a compete stop in front of the general -salutes) "Yes Boss?"

"Go to Crapministan and get photos of whats going on there, oh uh on the way back can you blow up the secret anthrax manufacturing facility admiral yu stin ki pu of north korea is building." "Yes boss" (Zing!!!!! fly's out of the room leaving behind a trail of green sparkles)

(General turns towards his aid) "When did speedy there start shooting out green sparklers?" (aid shrugs shakes head)

a reply to: BASSPLYR

You should be a comic strip writer.

originally posted by: framedragged

originally posted by: mbkennel

That's assuming full rationality.

Ah there you go, grounding me back in reality as usual lol. And you can even have a visceral demonstration of it, throw it right in Ryan Gang's face, and they don't even know what happened.*

If only we had the radiation readings from that little incident...511 keV would be really interesting

a reply to: BASSPLYR

..."Were ANY sp4s NEAR the coffee who are about to ETS?
KILL ADA ,it was a scouts FAVORITE food on the battle field. OF course it's MORE fun pluging the enemy CO or catching ANY sized large units in the open AND getting command to believe you

a reply to: Tajlakz

I think I might have to bust out my vacuum polarized sunglasses to block that much glare...

its about right now, that I wish i was deployed again to see these things in action in the field... Worked with Radar operations troops with AF. Got to see daily what was going on with UAVs and with all the good stuff in field. Zaphod knows what I'm talking about . He introduced me to the f22 when i had no clue what the hell it was last october overseas. Dubai airshows and such make for fun views!

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: BASSPLYR

US warfighting doctrine has layers to its layers. Its one reason that some kind of sister for the current stealth fleet makes so much sense.

That's why stealth is so effective too. It's not just the stealth of the aircraft. Its the EW package that both the F-22 and F-35 fields. Even if the radar can get a lock on you, just press a button and fry it. Lol.

Also the current doctrine of flying F-15c's along side F-22s. The eagles will be actively searching for the enemy while the raptors will be in full stealth mode, getting targeting info from the eagle. The enemy goes after the eagle, when the raptor pulls up to gun range and takes them down without even being detected at all. Or fires an AAMRAM from a hundred miles away.

a reply to: boomer135

What happens when they want to fly in with the F22's but can't use the F15c's because they want no radar signatures being tracked. Like when they want to do a covert or all stealth hit. Surely there is some more suitable companion they can use for that purpose to free up the f22's and keep the strike team as dynamic as possible. Or do the F22's just go it alone and use their own EW/ ECW suites to make a strike corridor?

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: boomer135

What happens when they want to fly in with the F22's but can't use the F15c's because they want no radar signatures being tracked. Like when they want to do a covert or all stealth hit. Surely there is some more suitable companion they can use for that purpose to free up the f22's and keep the strike team as dynamic as possible. Or do the F22's just go it alone and use their own EW/ ECW suites to make a strike corridor?

Oh yeah. The F-15 scenario above is just one method they like to use. They also have other profiles including raptor only missions, and even plans for F-35/F-22 missions. The F-22 is more than capable to execute its air to air mission all by itself.

originally posted by: boomer135

Oh yeah. The F-15 scenario above is just one method they like to use. They also have other profiles including raptor only missions, and even plans for F-35/F-22 missions. The F-22 is more than capable to execute its air to air mission all by itself.

that is dangerous notion / assumption on F-22's real combat abilities in war against similarly equipped airforce with modern capabilities. What if the F-22's attrition get so high it is restricted to only special missions ? the USAF will have to depend on their proven workhorse the F15 and F16 to do the grunt's work , while F-22 do the special mission.

in this regard i have to agree with Pierre Sprey, it is a folly to put everything in one 'stealth' basket. Mr Pierre even called 'Stealth' a scam..

originally posted by: buntalanlucu

originally posted by: boomer135

Oh yeah. The F-15 scenario above is just one method they like to use. They also have other profiles including raptor only missions, and even plans for F-35/F-22 missions. The F-22 is more than capable to execute its air to air mission all by itself.

that is dangerous notion / assumption on F-22's real combat abilities in war against similarly equipped airforce with modern capabilities. What if the F-22's attrition get so high it is restricted to only special missions ? the USAF will have to depend on their proven workhorse the F15 and F16 to do the grunt's work , while F-22 do the special mission.

in this regard i have to agree with Pierre Sprey, it is a folly to put everything in one 'stealth' basket. Mr Pierre even called 'Stealth' a scam..

Except they didn't put everything in the stealth basket for the F-22. While its true its the stealthiest aircraft out there right now, that's just one part of the raptor. And in my opinion, the raptor is basically a special mission aircraft. Its main role is air to air combat. But since we only made a few of them, the air force will have to lean on its other airframes to get the job done.

I wouldn't really call it an assumption either because even with what we know about the jet that's not classified, it's still the best fighter in the world. Add on the sensitive technology and its way ahead of everyone else. Just this week, the commander for red flag suggested that the air force needs to come up with some sort of virtual training for the F-22 and F-35 because they can't use all their capabilities during the exercise. I believe he said the systems were either too harmful to use or still classified and can't be shown even to our allies.

And one more thought...when it comes to the F-22, the United States doesn't have a similarly equipped enemy out there. China and Russia are getting close, but they have a long way to go still.

agreed F22 still king on the air , but it is dangerous to assume the superiority will last forever. Such overconfidence always proven fatal historically.

i wonder why militaries around the world dont make stealth cruise missile ? it is way more dangerous than a handful of fighters..

a reply to: buntalanlucu

Where has ANYONE said it would last forever. Stealth designs aren't sitting still, and are constantly improving as new materials are developed.

China and Russia may surprise us, but the chances of it being soon aren't great. They'll eventually catch up, but not right away.

You don't go zero to stealth cruise missile. You work with it on a large scale, like a fighter or bomber, and learn there, then go smaller.

originally posted by: buntalanlucu
agreed F22 still king on the air , but it is dangerous to assume the superiority will last forever. Such overconfidence always proven fatal historically.

i wonder why militaries around the world dont make stealth cruise missile ? it is way more dangerous than a handful of fighters..

F-22 is still king in white.
Not my area but I'd venture SAP production ready UCAV's are 2-3 leaps ahead in
stealth and maneuverability.

a reply to: UnderKingsPeak

They still are a couple years from air to air with UAVs.

The new stealth aircraft make the B-2 look like a barely stealthy legacy bomber.