It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Thank you.

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

# all black holes may change into white holes

page: 2
8
share:

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 02:56 AM

originally posted by: wtf2008
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Thanks for trying to explain but I still don't get it. So is light actually being pulled into the blackhole since it has mass (does it have mass?) or is it just the way we observe light that makes it look that way?

I've heard analogies about gravity, saying that it's like a bowling ball on a bed sheet spread out that bends the sheet with its mass and pulls anything on the bed sheet into it.

I know it's an incomplete layman terms analogy, but let's say the sheet is the universe and the bowling ball is a black hole. If we keep putting heavier and heavier things on the sheet (as long as they're not heavier than the bowling ball or the other things that have been pulled in), won't the sheet eventually tear?

The sheet is 3 dimensional but not in this analogy. It's just a 2 dimensional object, like a sheet of paper (also 3 dimensional) but again, not in this analogy. If a hole gets punched through this sheet of paper or sheet, what would be on the other side and what would happen to the objects/matter that caused the tear? In real life, it all falls on the floor. In universal life, who knows?

The objects/matter should pass through the tear and add their considerable matter and mass to the other side of that tear. At first it would be a big blast of 'white matter' or just regular matter passing through. But if it didn't have enough force or velocity to clear said whitehole's gravity or some kind of reverse gravity, then it would surely fall back in and start to create its own black whole again.

Would it be some never-ending back and forth of black and white hole, push and pull, opening in the universe? If it was, wouldn't it be feasible that space travellers could find, measure. and use such theorized wormholes since they would be on a somewhat regular pattern?

I probably read too much science fiction and not enough physics. Science fiction is just so much easier to read and much more entertaining. This was always just the picture in my head that I had about it.

a photon only has inertial mass. if there were a such thing as a stationary photon it would have zero mass.

the photon in a blackhole isn't directly trapped by gravity. when a photon tries to go in a straight line the space it goes through is warped into a curve. the photon simply can't go where it "wants" to go. though it is gravity that is causing the space the photon is in to curve away from where the photon wants to go. its not a direct graviton exchange between black hole and photon

if you were a bug walking on a sheet and your mission was to get to something off the sheet and you started walking towards it and giant human folded the sheet over you even if you continued to walk in a straight line you could not go to your original goal. the sheet represents the space and time the photon is travelling through. in curved space travelling in a straight line is actually impossible. you'd have to follow a twisted trip plan to get from point a to point b. a photon cannot "plan" a twisty route.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 03:34 AM
on your question about tearing space i am pretty sure that space would expand in response to stresses like that rather than tear. remember the theory of inflation. remember the alcubierre metric has a component of shrinking space too. i mean at the quantum level space can tear or something analogous to that at the plank scale. but macroscopically i have never heard of that being possible.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 03:45 AM

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Another possibility is that when the black hole punches through space/time and spews, a new universe is created. This somewhat jives with certain aspects of quantum mechanic's multiverse hypothesis.

Exactly what I was thinking

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 04:01 AM
a reply to: stormbringer1701

I think I kind of get it. So the photon isn't responding directly to gravity in terms of being pulled in because it has mass.

It's following the bend in space from the gravity of the medium it's travelling through. The light/photon is still travelling in what could be considered a straight line, but that straight line has been altered by a bend in space from an object with so much gravity that it has altered the actual shape of the space it's travelling through?

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 04:41 AM
a reply to: stormbringer1701

happens a good deal of the time in some sexual prractices

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 05:11 AM

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
According to physicists Carlo Rovelli and Hal Haggard, a black hole eventually reaches a point where it cannot collapse any further and the internal pressure begins to push outwards.

Pressure of what?

As a neutron star collapses due to gravity, it may briefly create a quark star. As the quark star collapses even further, there may or may not be an even more exotic type of object in brief existence. But, given that the original star's gravity was strong enough, nothing will ever resist the collapse. The article doesn't point to any sort of exotic matter that will resist any gravitational collapse. Also, the article incorrectly calls it a "scientific theory", whereas it's just a hypothesis. True scientific theories have been extensively tested, and offer the best possible explanation for the observable phenomena.

By the way, since the curvature of space-time below the event horizon is so strong that particles would have to be travelling faster than the speed of light to escape the black hole, there's another fundamental problem to proposing that a black hole could spew matter that was collapsing into it.

If there is a form of matter that will resist the gravitational collapse (no matter how strong), then the only logical outcome is stabilisation of the collapse, forming some kind of exotic object, rather than the spewing of all matter back into space. If the stuff is indeed spewed out into space, then it means the titanic gravity of the black hole no longer relevant (did it just disappear?), and the event would be visible to the rest of the universe.

It seems the only motivation these scientists had when they came up with this hypothesis is to counter the quantum physics' "information paradox", which I personally consider irrelevant. Information can, and does get, destroyed, just as it gets created.

Verdict: not convinced. Too many logical and scientific fallacies.
edit on 30-7-2014 by wildespace because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 05:36 AM

gravity dilates time and makes the black hole's lifespan seem to last for billions or trillions of years.

That doesn't make sense. It implies that time dilution has caused light travelling from the star to us has slowed down whereas relativity states that light in a vacuum always has velocity c.

Why can't I get my head around it.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 05:45 AM

originally posted by: glend

gravity dilates time and makes the black hole's lifespan seem to last for billions or trillions of years.

That doesn't make sense. It implies that time dilution has caused light travelling from the star to us has slowed down whereas relativity states that light in a vacuum always has velocity c.

Why can't I get my head around it.

Time dilation doesn't slow the light down, it increases its wavelength. This means that, with sufficient time dilation, all electromagnetic emission from the object redshifts out of detectable range. Also, even if you were somehow able to observe that light anyway, time dilation actualy means that the object will seem frozen in time.
edit on 30-7-2014 by wildespace because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 06:13 AM
a reply to: wildespace

Sorry if this question drives you nuts but If we look at that star in single reference of time after it turns white. Has it still got the gravitational force to redshift light as you explained for billions of years?

Or is time dilution causing time to dilute everything even after the gravitation force that caused the time dilution has dissipated.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 08:15 AM
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Having given this some thought, I sincerely doubt that the white holes poop stuff out into our universe, maintaining entropy.

Entropy has been decreasing since the Big Bang (if we understand the beginning of our universe correctly). Therefore it would seem disingenuous to expect entropy to reach an equilibrium.

Not impossible, I suppose, but given the nature of black holes and given decreasing entropy I would favor the matter being released into a newly created universe. Newly created by the "breaking" of the black hole.

I also feel that a black hole would have to reach a "critical mass" before the space/time rupture, whether it ruptures into our universe or a brand new one.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 08:25 AM
a reply to: wildespace

By the way, since the curvature of space-time below the event horizon is so strong that particles would have to be travelling faster than the speed of light to escape the black hole, there's another fundamental problem to proposing that a black hole could spew matter that was collapsing into it.

Think of it this way (as a mental exercise...I only offer this for consideration): Picture a black hole as being in the shape of a sock, where the mouth of the sock is the entrance point for matter, being pulled by the gravitational pull of the original singularity which resides in the "toe" of the sock. Once enough matter enters, the black hole reaches a critical mass, of sorts, and ruptures at the toe.

What happens after that? Who knows, but I picture a momentary wormhole from our universe to another universe that lasts for x amount of time. I suspect very briefly, but again, I am not presenting this as anything more than an exercise. If the toe ruptures and the matter spews into our own universe, then I can see the universe reaching some sort of entropic equilibrium, perhaps. If this is true, then I would say that we have not reached that point yet.

I favor the "creation of new universes" concept regarding the rupturing of black holes.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:45 AM

originally posted by: wtf2008
a reply to: stormbringer1701

I think I kind of get it. So the photon isn't responding directly to gravity in terms of being pulled in because it has mass.

It's following the bend in space from the gravity of the medium it's travelling through. The light/photon is still travelling in what could be considered a straight line, but that straight line has been altered by a bend in space from an object with so much gravity that it has altered the actual shape of the space it's travelling through?

Exactly.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:51 AM
Interesting.

Perhaps our Universe is / was in a black hole, perhaps the anomaly from being in a black to a white hole is dimensional and affects the experience of time and reality and is the origin of the Heaven / Hell idea.

Perhaps this is also relative to the fact space is increasingly expanding, the 'sucked in' matter of black holes somehow has less mass (like a bubble) or black holes being a gateway to a dimension where things that enter it have less mass or is separate from the 'space we know', ie space might be composed of 'compartments, which, given the structured nature of life generally (such as in cells, DNA coding etc) is perhaps more likely than a random assembly.

As an abstract thought, perhaps 'black holes' are like 3D printers, taking in matter and transforming it, using code (God magic), just like in procreation.
edit on 30-7-2014 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:58 AM
a reply to: stormcell

So you're thinking is along the lines of total containment of matter within the singularity, with no leakage whatsoever?

I'm not challenging that cause I don't know, just asking.

Tell me this, If the the Universe is infinite Big in my mind then it is infinitely old, too. In that case wouldn't all matter have been sucked into Black Holes by now?

How come Galaxies even exist?

Ate there any figures about the size of these jets and how much matter they contain? Seems a feeding cycle of a star for instance, could't produce that much energy out as a jet?

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:58 AM

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Having given this some thought, I sincerely doubt that the white holes poop stuff out into our universe, maintaining entropy.

Entropy has been decreasing since the Big Bang (if we understand the beginning of our universe correctly). Therefore it would seem disingenuous to expect entropy to reach an equilibrium.

Not impossible, I suppose, but given the nature of black holes and given decreasing entropy I would favor the matter being released into a newly created universe. Newly created by the "breaking" of the black hole.

I also feel that a black hole would have to reach a "critical mass" before the space/time rupture, whether it ruptures into our universe or a brand new one.

actually entropy only increases. it's a law of thermodynamics. you have that backwards.

remember the heat death of the universe? fire or ice? here were two choices for the fate of the universe until just about a decade ago. one was there was enough matter to eventually cause the universe to collapse in on itself. or expand forever if there was not enough matter to cause gravitational collapse. this has to do at one level with the curvature of the universe or the shape of the universe if you will. but if the universe was flat (and it is very very flat) the universe will go on forever.

which means eventually all of the stars would die all of the black holes would evaporate and anything left would be so far apart there would be no light and no warmth and finally if particles decay there would be nothing.

but now we have this theory. basically it say the universe does not die. that it has a renewal mechanism. there is an eternity.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:05 AM
When the black hole changes to a white hole is it called jacksoning?

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:07 AM
a reply to: stormbringer1701

This is SO not the place for this but I'm gonna throw it out anyway. ...I was thinking about, meditating on and dreaming of this -stuff- when I was pregnant 20-odd years ago - and had very clear and informative 'visions.' In short, I developed the understanding that black holes serve as a universe's 'vagina', the 'matter' sucked in is like insemination, and the process is gestational - ending in a 'birthing event' (or white hole?).

There's more of course and it was all quite awesome - but perhaps it's an adequate metaphor?

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:08 AM
a reply to: stormbringer1701

i think that they do not see this as cyclic events but an event at the end of the lifespan of a black hole.

I don't know either. But I have this personal idea that Black holes spew a bit when they get too big…

What do I know?

To bad there is no way to measure their density. All conjecture there, I think. Because we can't yet measure gravity like we do other spectrums.

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:13 AM
a reply to: wildespace

as it happens i was in a thread about warp drives and how to find negative matter or energy on another forum. it was pointed out to me thatthe hawking process also loads the interior of a black hole's event horizon with negative matter/energy. this is because in virtual pair creation particles with negative mass are preferentially trapped inside the barrier of a black hole as only positive matter can be "devirtualized" on the exterior of the event horizon. if that is the case then eventually all that negative energy reach a level where it will create an expansion pressure inside the event horizon

posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:16 AM

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: stormbringer1701

This is SO not the place for this but I'm gonna throw it out anyway. ...I was thinking about, meditating on and dreaming of this -stuff- when I was pregnant 20-odd years ago - and had very clear and informative 'visions.' In short, I developed the understanding that black holes serve as a universe's 'vagina', the 'matter' sucked in is like insemination, and the process is gestational - ending in a 'birthing event' (or white hole?).

There's more of course and it was all quite awesome - but perhaps it's an adequate metaphor?

I don't see why not.
edit on 30-7-2014 by stormbringer1701 because: formatting error

8