Defining Zionism.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: OpinionatedB

I have no issue with Israel staying Israel and allowing people of different religions to live in Israel.

All land is held with one thing and thats military might or alliances with military might. Imagine what the world would have been if Germany had been successful, what would they have occupied and held today? If America didn't have the military might it has today who would occupy us? Probably Russia.

As I have said before they are not getting the land back, until Hamas has the might. Until then it is lip service.
So the answer is simple "No rockets no problems." We yap about this, be pissed about this and that, blame so and so. But in the end Urkle is still punching Mike Tyson while hiding behind his wife.

If we are going to accurately compare the two, where does the Native Americans state that they want to eliminate Christianity? Where does it state that America wants to eliminate tribal customs?

a reply to: beezzer

We did try to force them to give up their heritage! Enough of them became believers in Christianity to incorporate it into their belief system.

There isn't enough profit in peace. Countries with the technology arm the smaller countries waring with each other, like it's just a big chess game.

World leaders and nearly all humans claim to want world peace, but violence to settle a difference of opinion will only bring hatred, retaliation and more violence.

All world leaders are perpetuating the cycle of violence. I don't see any working toward peace.

People of this world should not be fighting each other; they should be fighting the ones who promote war,
and profit from the common man's suffering.

We aren't born filled with hate; it's a learned behavior. Sad that peace isn't studied in school like war and violence is.

a reply to: nugget1

Warriors have been in human culture since the dawn of man.

It's a legacy we shouldn't ignore, but not embrace.

I say this somewhat hypocritically, being in the military for over 30 years.

But it is a subject I know all too well.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: beezzer

yet you refuse to side with those people now....that is extremely hypocritical really...

Hamas does NOT want the elimination of the state of Israel?

Since when?

You don't have to side with Hamas though...

You can still support the Palestinians, while denouncing the organisation of Hamas.

You could support the PLO, for example. They are recognised as the legitimate representative of Palestine.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: beezzer

Fair enough and I agree.

I'd still like to know if you think there was a wrong committed when the UN created the State of Israel in 1948.

At the time? No. No more so than the formation of America.

That's interesting. Couldn't we compare the Palestinians to the Native Americans and how they were herded on to reservations while we took their land?

You don't find that those actions were morally reprehensible and deserving of at least some bit of acknowledgment? In fact, you cannot agree that it was simply wrong?

If we are going to accurately compare the two, where does the Native Americans state that they want to eliminate Christianity?

Where does it state that America wants to eliminate tribal customs?

Hamas doesn't seek the destruction of any one religion or ethnic group. Their charter states that Jews, Christians and Muslims could all live together underneath a Palestinian state, so long as they recognise the state as such. Not much different to what Israel espouses now, really...

originally posted by: FyreByrd
From the Jewish Virtual Libray:

The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.

Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism has come to include the movement for the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel through support for the Israel Defense Forces.

From inception, Zionism avocated tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left, right, religious and secular - formed the Zionist movement and worked together toward its goals.

Disagreements in philosophy has led to rifts in the Zionist movement of the years and a number of separate forms have emerged, notably: Political Zionism; Religious Zionism; Socialist Zionism and Territorial Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

I define zionism as an agressive nationalist movement.

This post seems accurate.

So when did the definition of Zionism change to a movement to cause all military conflicts globally, monopolize global wealth, control the media, and eventually take over the world?

originally posted by: beezzer
When anyone starts dictating how another country should act and/or behave, then (perhaps) we are stepping into the bounds of a "one-world" type of government.

Not something any of us want.

Or, perhaps, I'm wrong again.

ahhh - a Jepardy answer. Question: What is fascism.

Since we're sticking to definitions.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

All land is held with one thing and thats military might or alliances with military might. Imagine what the world would have been if Germany had been successful, what would they have occupied and held today? If America didn't have the military might it has today who would occupy us? Probably Russia.

That would be fine if non-jews had the same rights and privledges as jews. But it is not and never was the intent.

In response to the paragraph quoted above. Do you remember the old magazine "Omni", it had articles on science, culture and short stories mostly SciFi. I remember one called, I think, called "Ice Backs" in reference the derogatory term used in those days (mid/late seventies, I think) for illegals though all people of hispanic heritage, legal or now, were called that.

So, the idea was that Russian's would take over the states by crossing the Bering Straights and not through any traditional miliary aggression as wars of aggression were against (and still are) all international law.

All that said, I just don't want to go to bed, who in their right mind would want to invade and/or occupy the United States of American. A land of delusion and illogic. I don't think anybody give a ***** they just want cash and to be left alone.

Then there is the idea that we are a willing sugar-daddy and place to externalize the expense of colonization by other powers.

Oh did I mention willful hypocacy.

originally posted by: FinalCountdown
Who won the crusades far and square?

What super power decided to f things up after winning WWII and create the country of Israel?

Who's been real pissed off ever since?

Why do Jews need their own country?

Why can't Jews live in Europe and America or anywhere else they want to?

I think it's weird that tptb assumed they could just create a country and start dumping money into it.
It smells like oil deals and alterior motives.

yeah, israel is sitting on a sea of oil.

and who cares who is pissed off. lots of people around the world are pissed off, some even in their own country are pissed off.

there are words that spark emotion, zionist is one. so is israel and palestine, sarah palin, bush, dead children etc.

ISIL is taking over iraq. big deal? see? no emotion.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: beezzer

Fair enough and I agree.

I'd still like to know if you think there was a wrong committed when the UN created the State of Israel in 1948.

At the time? No. No more so than the formation of America.

That's interesting. Couldn't we compare the Palestinians to the Native Americans and how they were herded on to reservations while we took their land?

You don't find that those actions were morally reprehensible and deserving of at least some bit of acknowledgment? In fact, you cannot agree that it was simply wrong?

the arabs turned their offer of a state down, the jews took their offer from the UN.

too late now, i'd say.

a reply to: sheepslayer247

how is it wrong?

and why are people bitchin at israel? they were given the land by the winners.

the arabs had their chance at the same time. they blew it.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

All land is held with one thing and thats military might or alliances with military might. Imagine what the world would have been if Germany had been successful, what would they have occupied and held today? If America didn't have the military might it has today who would occupy us? Probably Russia.

That would be fine if non-jews had the same rights and privledges as jews. But it is not and never was the intent.

Do non Americans have the same rights as Americans? Hell this president has proven Americans don't have rights as Americans anymore.

In response to the paragraph quoted above. Do you remember the old magazine "Omni", it had articles on science, culture and short stories mostly SciFi. I remember one called, I think, called "Ice Backs" in reference the derogatory term used in those days (mid/late seventies, I think) for illegals though all people of hispanic heritage, legal or now, were called that.

Not sure what you're getting at here in terms of occupying.

So, the idea was that Russian's would take over the states by crossing the Bering Straights and not through any traditional miliary aggression as wars of aggression were against (and still are) all international law.

Yeah that international law is a real problem, just ask Ukraine. I guess I didn't make the idea clear without the military might you can keep nothing. The world is not a nice place, and Russia would have taken whatever they wanted, had we not the might to stop them. Since when has international law had anything to do with the bad people of the world.? When has the UN stopped any bad country or person or government from doing awful things?This is like gun control, criminals don't just a rats ass about laws. How many bank robberies were stopped because having that gun was illegal?

All that said, I just don't want to go to bed, who in their right mind would want to invade and/or occupy the United States of American. A land of delusion and illogic. I don't think anybody give a ***** they just want cash and to be left alone.

Sleep well there are military people putting their lives on the line everyday so you can sleep like a baby, dreaming about flowers, candy, and teddy bears.

Then there is the idea that we are a willing sugar-daddy and place to externalize the expense of colonization by other powers.

Now you are catching on, we fund others military might to do as they wish. Whether it is to overthrow countries, governments, drug lords, or just supply arms to people resisting our enemies. Again, as I said military might or alliances with military might.

Oh did I mention willful hypocacy.

Israel is an ally there is no hypocrisy, we support them and always have. The difference today is that support is waning because of the current POTUS. Being the peach of a leader he is. Obviously Hamas would take whatever they wanted had they the military might, I think its safe to say based on their continued rhetoric they want Israel eliminated and all jews killed without hesitation. They insist on shooting rockets into a country that has the military might and are right now proving it by getting civilians killed without a second thought. Don't shoot rockets and don't get your ass kicked by a military might hugely superior to yours.

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: FinalCountdown
Who won the crusades far and square?

What super power decided to f things up after winning WWII and create the country of Israel?

Who's been real pissed off ever since?

Why do Jews need their own country?

Why can't Jews live in Europe and America or anywhere else they want to?

I think it's weird that tptb assumed they could just create a country and start dumping money into it.
It smells like oil deals and alterior motives.

yeah, israel is sitting on a sea of oil.

and who cares who is pissed off. lots of people around the world are pissed off, some even in their own country are pissed off.

there are words that spark emotion, zionist is one. so is israel and palestine, sarah palin, bush, dead children etc.

ISIL is taking over iraq. big deal? see? no emotion.

Zionism is used in the same way that capitalism is used against the US. You have to provide the enemy with a label so everyone can point fingers and say see, those capitalist pigs are the problem of the world. This is a communist tactic going back many many years. Progressives have learned well.

originally posted by: tsingtao
a reply to: sheepslayer247

how is it wrong?

and why are people bitchin at israel? they were given the land by the winners.

the arabs had their chance at the same time. they blew it.

What winners? That land was not seized through war......the UN just decided to give in to the Jews and booted people off the land.

a reply to: beezzer

Beezer,

Before I begin I wish to thank you for your service. There is nothing wrong spending a life structured around integrity and honor. One who would be willing to sacrifice everything, believing in something as important as our Constitution, deserves our respect. There are many things to treasure in our Constitution. For starters, it allows us to have this conversation.

If I needed to define "Zionism", then I would define it as: A generational plan and/or methodology combining tribal racism, political and religious systems under one agenda. The goal of said Zionism is to support the formation of a single state called "Israel", at any cost. And when I say any cost, I do not mean just monetary. I mean abandoning humanity, critical thinking, reasoning, law, morality, and conscience to do so.

I too want peace. I will side with anyone that wants peace. I think the whole concept of a militarized Hamas is completely insane. Both sides are violating humanitarian law. However, be mindful that I recognize that it was formed and nurtured by the same people who want war to continue indefinitely. I have accepted the same people pursing for said state, are the same ones funding and supporting Hamas directly and indirectly. So, with the realization of that, Hamas can be defined in many ways to simply be a red herring. And, it fills that role very well. It has you chasing it, instead of what is really going on, doesn't it?

I side with the peaceful Palestinians and Israeli's, who, like me, probably dream of a better time. People like the Israeli's, whom carry Palestinian children on their back in support and love. A better place. A better world. A place where this kind of action and thinking is considered and treated as high treason against humanity. Where we simply "get along". Where we can co-exist, realizing our differences are a strong suit, not a weakness. Where they do not have to wake up, worrying that an occupational force or some other nation, is going to demand 100,000 of my fellow people leave their homes, or be killed.

I side with those that simply wish to enjoy and experience life, to the fullest. Those that wish to partake in a pursuit of happiness, and being respectful of other peoples rights. I support a way that maximizes all freedom and liberty, for everyone.

I thought we finally figured it out as a species. Isn't that what the Holocaust, and World War 1 and 2 was supposed to teach us? Sadly, it looks like I was wrong. So wrong in fact, that I must admit, Israel's actions as to enforcement of Human Rights, not "Israeli Citizen" rights of late against the Palestinian people, give me reason for tremendous pause to the veracity of what history tells us what happened to them as a collective people in that era. Actions speak much louder than words. I can tell you this, I am now staunchly neutral on the whole narrative surrounding the behind the scenes reasons of both World Wars because of it.

Now, with that said the comparison to what we did to the Native tribes here vs Palestine today, is going to happen. Posters, are going to be correct at a fundamental level. Our fore-founders, as enlightened as they were, were still racist. They made mistakes too. We dissolved into Civil War over it at one point. That is just what we need to accept. But, we, as a nation have grown up and matured a bit sense then. We have made great strides in reducing our own racism via education, and are still attempting as a people to usher in equal protection. Our knowledge has increased. And some of our core values have changed, for the better. Multiculturalism is an accepted and supported part of mine, and younger generations.

We still have a long way to go to achieve the ideals the fore-founders gave us to strive towards, but we have to start somewhere. One thing for sure, condoning and supporting obvious crimes against humanity in 2014, is not the right path. Accepting our skeletons in the closet, making necessary changes to prevent that from happening again, and moving on, is the right one.

In essence, the only way out of this mess peacefully, is through the truth.

As for solutions, there are many if you set aside the religious overtones for a few moments. Israel does not have a Constitution. It never officially codified one. It was to be written and completed by October 1st, 1948 in Israel's Declaration of Independence. But, shockingly, a war happened about the time they were to write one. That war was used as an excuse to delay the writing of it. Even 70 years later, they still have not gotten around to it.

In fact, the Israeli government was more concerned with Property Rights for Israeli's, instead of Human Rights in 1958. See the organization of "basic law" that was written. I ask myself where the priories are.

en.wikipedia.org...

Additionally, wikipedia states that the "Torah" is considered their Constitution. If you have read the Torah objectively, you know the writers of the Torah, were not very accepting of what we would consider progressive secular thinking. The fictional Character Moses, demanded and enforced death against those that freely thunk for themselves. Or, in all truthfulness, death to those that were against his war God version of Elohim, or YHWH. Do we want to return as a people, to this method of theocratic barbarianism?

Another solution is a loose federation, of two states. One Israel, one Palestine. Both with it's own state Constitution, but overseen by a primary one. Think the united States Constitution, and the States in our nation.

However, the key to any solutions are to bring in secular experts on the field of "eschatology" for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, or, for those that do not recognize the term, the study of end times. That way, experts can direct and steer the dialog and solution in a way that does not trigger end of the world hysteria for all 3 religions, and, come up with a workable solution that benefits humanity as a whole.

Can we go to Titan? I think there may be some biological life there. Let's go find out, together?

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: FinalCountdown
Who won the crusades far and square?

What super power decided to f things up after winning WWII and create the country of Israel?

Who's been real pissed off ever since?

Why do Jews need their own country?

Why can't Jews live in Europe and America or anywhere else they want to?

I think it's weird that tptb assumed they could just create a country and start dumping money into it.
It smells like oil deals and alterior motives.

yeah, israel is sitting on a sea of oil.

and who cares who is pissed off. lots of people around the world are pissed off, some even in their own country are pissed off.

there are words that spark emotion, zionist is one. so is israel and palestine, sarah palin, bush, dead children etc.

ISIL is taking over iraq. big deal? see? no emotion.

Zionism is used in the same way that capitalism is used against the US. You have to provide the enemy with a label so everyone can point fingers and say see, those capitalist pigs are the problem of the world. This is a communist tactic going back many many years. Progressives have learned well.

Could you please educate me on how that is a communist tactic?

a reply to: FyreByrd


snip from post

The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.

here's where it gets messy

a return of the scattered Jewish People to a Jewish Homeland...

both the northern Kingdom Israel
and the southern Kingdom Judah

but the Zionists claim is that the conquered territory which was the repackaged as the 10 Northern Kingdom Tribes known as Israel is the heritage of Judah (the modern Jewish State misnamed Israel)------------------------------ Absolutely Wrong !!!


the modern Jewish homeland is properly defined as the area of the ancient Judah only...(look up any of the various ancient maps)
claiming the lands of Ancient Israel or even Greater-Israel is ...."Zionism"



it gets even messier because the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah were conquered territory from the indigent peoples there
So--- the claim of Israel or Judah that the land is a heritage~~from God~~ is itself backed only by the might of the Western World

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: FinalCountdown
Who won the crusades far and square?

What super power decided to f things up after winning WWII and create the country of Israel?

Who's been real pissed off ever since?

Why do Jews need their own country?

Why can't Jews live in Europe and America or anywhere else they want to?

I think it's weird that tptb assumed they could just create a country and start dumping money into it.
It smells like oil deals and alterior motives.

yeah, israel is sitting on a sea of oil.

and who cares who is pissed off. lots of people around the world are pissed off, some even in their own country are pissed off.

there are words that spark emotion, zionist is one. so is israel and palestine, sarah palin, bush, dead children etc.

ISIL is taking over iraq. big deal? see? no emotion.

Zionism is used in the same way that capitalism is used against the US. You have to provide the enemy with a label so everyone can point fingers and say see, those capitalist pigs are the problem of the world. This is a communist tactic going back many many years. Progressives have learned well.

Could you please educate me on how that is a communist tactic?

The conflation of Jews and revolution emerged in the atmosphere of destruction of WW1 Russia. Many Russian Jews had actually volunteered to serve the Tsar in the war and there were at least 400,000 Jews serving in the Russian army in 1914. By the end of 1915, some 5 million Polish Jews of the Russian Empire had become subjects of Imperial Germany, the consequence of the Russian defeats. When the revolutions of 1917 crippled Russia's war effort conspiracy theories grew up - even far from Berlin and Petrograd, many Britons for example, ascribed the Russian Revolution to an 'apparent conjunction of Bolsheviks, Germans and Jews.' And in fact the Wilhelmstrasse had looked at the possibilities of a public embrace of Zionism. A recent history of the intended use of world religions in World War I, concluded that 'neither Max Bodenheimer s committee of German Zionists, nor the Zionist Executive, nor any kind of organized international Jewish network had much of anything to do with either the February or October Revolution.'

The worldwide spread of the concept in the 1920s is associated with the publication and circulation of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The expression made an issue out of the Jewishness of some leading Bolsheviks (most notably Leon Trotsky) during and after the October Revolution. Daniel Pipes says that "primarily through the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Whites spread these charges to an international audience."James Webb wrote that it is rare to find an antisemitic source after 1917 that ..."does not stand in debt to the White Russian analysis of the Revolution."

Source

a reply to: MarlinGrace

And that has nothing to do with your comment about communism.

Please elaborate in a way that is relevant.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: MarlinGrace

And that has nothing to do with your comment about communism.

Please elaborate in a way that is relevant.

If you can't grasp the relevance of the material stated then what else is there to say? I did my part now you do yours, prove it's not.