NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.

a reply to: Blister

BUK doesn't have an IFF or an NCTR system on it. It was designed to be as simple as possible to operate, with very little training for the operators.

aviationweek.com...

I'm well aware that it can detect altitude, but to do it from a primary return, which this system would have to use, requires a lot of training and practice.

a reply to: Blister

LOL. Whatever. Now you are showing your utter disrespect for people with views contrary to your own. IMHO, good on any person who can see the world in a way that differs from the official US government one, such as the State Department.

Having read your post: Wow, pot, kettle, black. Ironic mucho? Hypocrisy much?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Blister

I'm almost positive that the shootdown was an accident. There is no advantage to any side to deliberately shoot it down. But I think that they were after an AN-26, and since there is no system to identify planes, and the radar is difficult to read altitude on, they thought that MH17 was the AN-26 they were looking for, and fired at it.

I think there are two ways to respond to this.

We can listen to the BBC Russia video and take from it that Ukrainian fighters routinely use civilian passenger aircraft as shields. That it seems is indisputable.

Given that knowledge, we can assume that either, the Ukrainians shot MH17 down using one of their own BUK systems and trained personal, or forces of Novorossiya somehow gained a fully working BUK TELAR and had the skills to use it.

The latter just seems plain unlikely. Even given the evidence that they had one such TELAR in their possession (and ignoring suggestions it had earlier been sent to Russia) that BUK TELAR was in an unusable condition.

Sadly, to me anyways, the weight of evidence points to well trained Ukrainian military units acting in collusion to down MH17 and place the blame on anti-Kiev forces.

a reply to: Blister

Except for the fact rebels have posted information before boasting about bringing down Ukraine military aircraft. So your attempt to dismiss their claims wont work.

As for the op source I pointed out he was less than friendly to the west. I pointed out the site linked in the OP does not place the info into context via the source who put it together.

you really need to stop overreacting when someone does not share your point of view.

a reply to: Blister

Then how did they shoot down at least one plane that was at 22,000 feet if they didn't have a working SAM system? Or did the Ukrainians shoot that down too? MANPADS engagement ranges are generally below 20,000 feet.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Good points. Though I am not sure if I agree with your seeming conclusion that points toward anti-Kiev forces launching the attack. Just seems counter-intuitive given their lack of working BUK TELAR.

As ever, just my opinion, for now.

a reply to: Blister

The rebels dont agree with your position / assertions.


Donetsk defence forces take control of army unit equipped with missile defence systems - June 29th 2014

DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday.

So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment.

The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.

Ukraine Rebel Leader Admits Fighters Did Have BUK Missile

DONETSK, Ukraine, July 23 (Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

Two Ukrainian military jets shot down over rebel-held area

There, OSCE officials were examining for the first time a fragment of the Malaysia Airlines plane’s fuselage that is marked with small dents, as though from shrapnel — a potentially key piece of information for investigators that has been sitting unguarded for days, propped against a light pole on the street.

b[]Even the rebels apparently now agree with U.S. and Ukrainian assertions that a Buk antiaircraft missile system downed Flight 17, although the separatists continue to blame the Ukrainian military.

“In an attack from the air, say by a fighter or other aircraft, the missile reacts to heat and, as a rule, hits the engine. Here the picture is somewhat different,” a rebel leader, Andrei Purgin, told the Russian news agency Interfax on Wednesday.

“The distinctive feature of Buk-type systems is that they attack the forebody of the aircraft,” he said. “The cockpit is actually torn off from the rest of the fuselage, which apparently also happened this time when the cockpit fell much earlier and lies farther away from the rest of the fragments.”

a reply to: Xcathdra
Except for the fact that twitter accounts are not verified in any way, nor are facebook or myspace pages. Anyone can sign up and say they are whomever they want. Social media is not even close to being a vetted source, some people on twitter have posted good information in the past, many also posted outright lies, propaganda and agenda driven BS. Public figures and businesses are the only ones that get vetted, only when they want an "official page". Every other twitter account could be anyone posting as anyone.

Verification is currently used to establish authenticity of identities of key individuals and brands on Twitter.

originally posted by: Blister
Just seems counter-intuitive given their lack of working BUK TELAR.

Where are you getting this information from? That the BUK was non functional?

a reply to: Blister

They obviously have SOME sort of working SAM system, or they couldn't reach above 20,000, which they have.

a reply to: TKDRL

The twitter info is accepted when the info is in favor of Pro Russian / Russia. When it doesnt support their position its somehow false?

lol ok

In case you missed it the same twitter messages are once again posted by Pro Russia rebels, claiming credit for shooting down a few more Ukrainian aircraft in the last week.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Accepted by whom? Certainly not by me.

If he is willing to execute reporters, then he is willing to fire on a civilian aircraft.

Ukraine rebel chief Igor Bezler threatens to execute interviewer

With a walrus moustache, a fiery temper and a reputation for brutality, Igor Bezler is the most feared of all the rebel leaders in eastern Ukraine. Nicknamed Bes, or “the Demon”, he is regarded as something of a loose cannon, even by other rebels, who speak about him in hushed tones. If the Ukrainian security services, the SBU, are to be believed, the Demon and a group of his men were responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over the region a fortnight ago.

According to the recording of a phone call allegedly made two minutes before the disaster, the Demon was told: “A bird is flying towards you.” He asked whether it was small or big, and was told that it was hard to see, as it was flying high above the clouds. In another recording, apparently made 20 minutes later, the Demon reported to his interlocutor, supposedly a Russian intelligence official, that a plane had been shot down. Bezler said the recording was real, but referred to a different incident: as well as allegedly bringing down MH17, the rebels have shot down 10 Ukrainian aircraft.

The Demon hardly ever gives interviews, but a Russian journalist and I managed to secure one, so we set off last Thursdayto visit his headquarters in the town of Gorlovka, a 40-minute drive along deserted roads from the regional capital of Donetsk.

Previously a normal east Ukrainian town, with decaying Soviet-era industrial plants and a political elite that skimmed off the financial flows that might have helped lift it from its decrepit state, Gorlovka has become the Demon’s fiefdom in the three months since the uprising started.

Click link for remainder of article...

so this is what "Pro Russian Democracy and Self Determination" look like in the East / South rebel controlled areas.

Given the density and velocity of the fragments it doesn't seem unreasonable to think some could go in one side of the plane and out the other.

a reply to: glend

Some sources say the Ukrainians had two SU-27's in the air at the time possibly escorting the MH17.

Here let's think about this shall we...

Now if two fighters were escorting this plane when it was shot down, and here's the big question.

Why wouldn't those two planes return fire after seeing a jet they were escorting shot down?

Just a simple question that seems to be overlooked by anyone that thinks they escorted this jet with any fighter.

a reply to: glend

There has been a video of a East Ukraine FF Girl from a month before the event, she has stated that the Ukraine Govt has been shadowing Civ planes to shield them from missile systems in their attacks as a defensive tactic.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Um... maybe because they were ordered NOT to ,... you see pilots just don't do things on their own... they fly under orders and DO things under orders...WW3 would have started otherwise...

a reply to: R_Clark

not bullet holes.
the missile explodes away from the aircraft sending 1000's of small projectiles into the aircraft.
these projectiles are traveling so fast and are so small they rip through the plane. Think Claymore against Styrofoam

How a missile hit looks like?

a reply to: maghun

Many different types of missiles. The SA-11 missile from ground based BUK explodes near the aircraft to destroy the aircraft in a shrapnel cloud. Link