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NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.

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posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:42 PM
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originally posted by: TKDRL
a reply to: Zaphod58
A plane, following a straight path, would be a sitting duck. All you gotta do is lead it, and let it move right into your path of fire. Even if the pilots happened to notice, no way a jetliner is going to have the reactionary nimbleness to avoid all the shots.




Why would Ukraine shoot down a civilian jetliner? There were other commercial jets in the area at the time and they are all ok. Why?


Not to mention the rebels already took responsibility for shooting the aircraft down via social media.
edit on 29-7-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
Why would anyone?

And LOL @ twitter posts believed to be anything resembling concrete evidence



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:50 PM
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a reply to: TKDRL

Barely trained people can easily accidentally shoot down a commercial plane. Especially with no way to identify it on the missile system.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: SUBKONCIOUS

Some sources say the Ukrainians had two SU-27's in the air at the time possibly escorting the MH17.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: glend

Then why didn't they show up on the Russian radar tapes?

Notice how he says "I believe" they were being escorted, and "they were ready" to escort any planes? He doesn't come out and say definitively that they were being escorted.
edit on 7/29/2014 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:59 PM
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and rebel sources stated on social media they had BUK's and shot the aircraft down.

Secondly the SU 27 does not fit into the umpteenth theory Russia has put forward, where they identified the aircraft as an SU 25. I guess its possible Russia could change their evidence over to SU 27 since the SU 25 is not capable of doing whats being claimed, let alone causing the damage with the air to air missiles it carries.

The op source is interesting. If people research the name of the person who wrote the article you will find over 300 articles that are less than west friendly while making claims that are supported by make believe.

Props to the op for trying to bury the source under a link that appears legitimate.

Anderwelt Online - Peter Haisenko bio

Link is German so you will need a translator program.
edit on 29-7-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:11 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Note this link

"Russian air force chief Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the ill-fated airliner’s vicinity just before the crash and that it was likely a Ukrainian fighter jet."

So chief Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev hasn't speculated on type of second aircraft.

In same media release they added... "US officials also said that Ukrainian fighters can’t operate at 30,000 feet"

So if release is true looks like US is trying hide the fact that Ukraine have SU-27's that can operate at 60,000 feet.

Have to search for any direct releases from Russian military that specify their radar contact was a SU-25 (could they tell only 10,000 pound difference unleaden??? )
edit on 29 7 2014 by glend because: spelling



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:15 PM
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a reply to: glend


The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

rt.com...


“An altitude gain was detected for a Ukrainian combat jet, supposedly a Su-25, flying at a distance of 3-5 kilometers [1.8-3.1 miles] from the Boeing,” Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, told a media conference in Moscow.
The presence of the Ukrainian combat jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.

en.ria.ru...

One plane was allegedly detected, but only after it climbed to almost 17,000 feet. If they were Su-27s escorting the plane a few questions come to mind.

1. Why were they escorting the plane by flying so low that Russian radar (which was allegedly in standby, which somehow made it only work above almost 17,000 feet) couldn't see them? When you escort you're supposed to stay NEAR the plane you're escorting.

2. Why was there only one allegedly detected? You escort in pairs.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:28 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
and rebel sources stated on social media they had BUK's and shot the aircraft down.


Total crap. You know it. The social media posting was made by a person unrelated to any anti-Kiev organization or unit. Are you responsible for fake postings made by other people purporting to be you? No. Get over it.


Secondly the SU 27 does not fit into the umpteenth theory Russia has put forward, where they identified the aircraft as an SU 25. I guess its possible Russia could change their evidence over to SU 27 since the SU 25 is not capable of doing whats being claimed, let alone causing the damage with the air to air missiles it carries.


The Russian press conference at which this was discussed merely suggested that the aircraft could "possibly" be SU25. There was and has not ever been any assertion as to the type of fighter aircraft tracked in the vicinity of MH17 on radar. You sound like a petulant child.


The op source is interesting. If people research the name of the person who wrote the article you will find over 300 articles that are less than west friendly while making claims that are supported by make believe.


LOL. Whatever. Now you are showing your utter disrespect for people with views contrary to your own. IMHO, good on any person who can see the world in a way that differs from the official US government one, such as the State Department.


Props to the op for trying to bury the source under a link that appears legitimate.

Anderwelt Online - Peter Haisenko bio

Link is German so you will need a translator program.


Enough said. Why is this link not legitimate? Do you know something the rest of us do not? I imagine you think you do. ##SNIPPED##

This thread was very good in raising the issue of Ukrainian fighters shooting down MH17. I suggest if you don't like the subject matter, be a bit more constructive in posting to it. Or just keep lips shut.

Edit: Oh yes, here is a link to some of the "bullets" the German expert was on about:
www.armaco.bg...
edit on 29-7-2014 by Blister because: (no reason given)
edit on Wed Jul 30 2014 by DontTreadOnMe because: We expect civility and decorum within all topics.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:35 PM
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Looks like the opposite site of where the projectile hit , and exited on this part of the wreckage , just in the middle above the red line you see the holes where the screws or bolts would have been , the holes look clean , does this indicate the screws or bolts where pushed out of the holes by a explosion ?



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

The Russia Today link you gave me said "probably" a SU-25 when you listen to video translation. But the evidence from Russia satellites show Ukraine setting up extra buk missile systems in the vicinity of the crash days before the MH17 incident then removing them after the crash. Very unusual if the Russian assertion is true, that Ukraine rebels don't have planes!
Note: July 17 was also the day that Israel Defense Forces entered Palestine.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: TheGreazel

You can still see some of the rivets. The outer skin was ripped away from the rivet attachments, leaving the heads still attached.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:43 PM
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a reply to: glend

I have NEVER heard of a radar system that in standby can only detect above 16,000 feet. When radar is in standby it's shut off. You also (even Russian, and nations trained by Russians) don't fly fighters alone, unless you are doing a Functional Check Flight after maintenance. So why was there one? And if what was detected DID shoot the plane down, why did Russia go straight to a ground attack plane, instead of saying it was an Su-27 or MiG-29? Wouldn't that make so much more sense, instead of a ground attack plane that could probably only shoot another plane down by sheer luck?



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:48 PM
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Sorry, I'm afraid this story is complete nonsense. For all of the reasons others have posted above.

This plane was not shot down by Ukrainian fighter jets. They have nothing in their arsenal that could reach that altitude.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:50 PM
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a reply to: Painterz

Actually they do, they have both Su-27s and MiG-29s, but the evidence is against it being shot down by fighters, even with what the Russian's released.
edit on 7/29/2014 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:13 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58


Ok thanks for the info , i haven't even begin to make assumptions on what really happened , From the beginning there has been a huge media war going on.

Also i am from The Netherlands so i know i must be patient with evidence and not let my personal feelings cloud my judgment.

But i know my Dutch Government has not got the resources to probably find true evidence , or even arrest and prosecute the people or groups(s) responsible , at least not without international support.

Very open minded interested in who ever is behind this though , if we ever find out.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

100% in agreement. Air to air missiles could have downed MH17, but unlikely due to relatively small scale of damage caused by Vympel R-27 or R-73. Still possible though. Arguments in favour of air to air missile strike include (alleged)tracking of MH17 by fighters; lack of rocket trail that would be visible from SAM launch - but not necessarily with air to air missiles after x amount of time; altitude and speed of MH17.

Logical explanation is that SU27's were tracking MH17. Why that aircraft we do not know. Maybe it was simply pot luck that was chosen. BUK system tracks the fighters and fires, leaving the SAM missiles to chase down the aircraft. At this time one of the fighters (see censored BBC interview tapes) overtakes MH17 in close proximity and does a tight "hairpin" turn. Both fighters leave the vicinity. BUK missiles hit MH17 with catastrophic consequences. Arguments in favour of this: assertion of Ukrainian fighters being present close to MH17; civilian witnesses saying there were fighters in the vicinity; civilians stating that one of the planes turned around; alleged presence of Ukrainian BUK systems in the area on that day; shrapnel damage comparable to SA11 (and SA17 but not sure if Ukraine bought these); appropriate target altitude and fire control scenario to use BUK system; easily disowned and blamed on anti-Kiev forces.


Use closed captions to see English translation.

Just my opinion though.
edit on 29-7-2014 by Blister because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:21 PM
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a reply to: Blister

I'm almost positive that the shootdown was an accident. There is no advantage to any side to deliberately shoot it down. But I think that they were after an AN-26, and since there is no system to identify planes, and the radar is difficult to read altitude on, they thought that MH17 was the AN-26 they were looking for, and fired at it.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:37 PM
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a reply to: R_Clark

I guess I am a bit confused... according to news correspondents in the area, access to the crash zone is still very limited, so how are these German experts on the spot?

If true, this is very disturbing. However it also does not rule out Russian fighters equipped with 30mm cannon. One other question: Why would jets use 30mm cannon when they could have just used a heat seeking missile from afar? Doesn't seem logical to me that a fighter jet would close in on a target to shoot it down with 30 mm cannon.

I am beginning to wonder if we will ever have incontrovertible evidence what happened. What is it with Malaysia and mysterious airline incidents, anyway?

edit on 29-7-2014 by bbracken677 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 08:04 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

MH17 transponder should have been visible to BUK fire control system.

Ukrainian air force fighters do not use such identifying features thus they would not have been readily identifiable - other than assuming that the lack thereof means they are military combat aircraft.

FYI, here's a shot inside the TELAR of BUK M2E (uses SA17 missiles; TELAR made from 2007):
upload.wikimedia.org...

And yes, radar can detect altitude of an aircraft.
Source: fas.org...
Source: www.globalsecurity.org...





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