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NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.

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posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: maghun




The BUK is a system, not a vehicle.


And who told you that?





And here is the history of the BUK system...



Enjoy...
edit on 1-8-2014 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

He meant that it's not just one vehicle, it's a system.



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 03:30 PM
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a reply to: Flatcoat




He meant that it's not just one vehicle, it's a system.


Sure that is what was meant, but then why not say it as a system.

But now take a look at this...Fire Dome Radar.


This radar's antenna shown in the photograph, named FIRE DOME, is located inside a large environmental radome cover that's attached to the front face of a turreted platform mounted on a mobile tracked vehicle. The radar apparently uses mono-pulse techniques for target and missile tracking. It provides target tracking data and possibly radio guidance to the short range, SA-11 GADFLY air defense missile weapon system. The radar operates in I/J radio-band (8-12 GHz). This missile weapon system may possibly employ a semi-active missile homing capability. The radar has a missile range of 3 to 32km (2-20 mi.) and altitudes up to 22km (14 mi). This weapon was developed by the former Soviet Union (FSU) for their air defense forces.


www.nationalelectronicsmuseum.org...

So it seems that the BUK system can be used as a single vehicle as apposed to a system if it needs to be. Like with the separatists.



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 03:34 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h




Sure that is what was meant, but then why not say it as a system.


But that is what he said




The BUK is a system, not a vehicle. The Donbass Militia had only one Transporter Erector Launcher (TEL), not a Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar (TELAR)



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: Flatcoat




But that is what he said


You are right, I guess it's time to get the eyes checked.

Now it can be used as a single vehicle that doesn't need the rest of the battery...


But the Soviet military and the designers installed a set of backup modes that would permit the Telars to detect and attack targets autonomously, in the event the Snow Drift was shut down or destroyed by NATO’s rapidly improving anti-radar missiles.

The autonomous modes are intended for last-ditch use by the Telar operators, not the more highly trained crews in the battery command vehicle. According to an experienced analyst of Russian-developed radar, the automatic radar modes display targets within range. The operator can then command the system to lock up the target, illuminate and shoot.

Critically, these backup modes also bypass two safety features built into the 9S18M Snow Drift radar: a full-function identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system and non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR) modes. The IFF system uses a separate interrogator located above the main radar antenna and most likely will have been upgraded to current civilian standards.



But the Soviet military and the designers installed a set of backup modes that would permit the Telars to detect and attack targets autonomously, in the event the Snow Drift was shut down or destroyed by NATO’s rapidly improving anti-radar missiles.

The autonomous modes are intended for last-ditch use by the Telar operators, not the more highly trained crews in the battery command vehicle. According to an experienced analyst of Russian-developed radar, the automatic radar modes display targets within range. The operator can then command the system to lock up the target, illuminate and shoot.

Critically, these backup modes also bypass two safety features built into the 9S18M Snow Drift radar: a full-function identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system and non-cooperative target recognition (NCTR) modes. The IFF system uses a separate interrogator located above the main radar antenna and most likely will have been upgraded to current civilian standards.


aviationweek.com...

Which would be the best route to take without having to train the separatists for a long time on how to use it.


So if required each TELAR vehicle can operate autonomously. The radar detects aircraft flying at altitude over 3 km at a range of 65-77 km. Detection range is reduced to 32-41 km when aircraft fly at 30-100 m above the ground. Low-flying aircraft are detected at a range of 21-35 km.
When TELAR operates autonomously it takes about 24-27 seconds from target detection to missile launch. It can stop and launch its missiles in about 5 minutes from travelling. It also takes about 5 minutes to leave the firing position.
A TELAR vehicle is based on GM-569 special tracked chassis. It is powered by a multi-fuel diesel engine, developing 710 hp. Later models are fitted with a more powerful engine, developing 840 hp. Maximum road speed is limited to 65 km/h. Vehicle is also fitted with auxiliary gas turbine power unit, which powers all systems when the main engine is turned off.


www.military-today.com...
edit on 1-8-2014 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: maghun

You are so wrong. If the left wing was damaged, and spun them around, and it took "several minutes" to decide to shoot them down, they would have been both farther than 16 miles, and on the radio declaring an emergency.

The listed coordinates do not show a turn. At all.

Not to mention that a missile that size would have blown the wing clean off.
edit on 8/1/2014 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 05:29 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

You are right. The listed coordinates are not, but the flightradar24 animation is not ending at 13:21, it shows the plane with "lost signal" till 13:32, after that the plane "disappears".

Screenshot:



Can't embed the link correctly:

www.flightradar24.com/2014-07-17/13:25/12x/MAS17/3d6095b

Not a missile, but 30-mm gun, type GSh-302
edit on 08pm5050000008 by maghun because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I know my english is very bad, but:



The Donbass Militia had only one Transporter Erector Launcher (TEL), not a Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar (TELAR)


TEL or TELAR?



...backup modes that would permit the Telars to detect and attack targets autonomously...



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: maghun

Do you even BEGIN to understand how much worse that would be than a missile? One round to the wing would have snapped it like a dry twig.



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 06:58 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

I know nothing about this kind of damages (saw only photos of the Shanksville "debris field" before MH17 crash), but I believe the "experts" stating this:


Shrapnel-based SA-11 missile, known as a Grizzly, will have 'shredded' the plane on impact, expert says
Will have perforated wings, engines, fuel tanks, and highly-pressurised cabin, which will have exploded 'instantly'
Passengers will have been 'oblivious' to hit, claims Justin Bronk, aircraft expert at Royal United Services Institute


'Almost nobody on board would have known what was happening': Expert describes effect of missile hit on MH17


They can cut an aircraft in half, set it on fire or provide large pieces of shrapnel that shred it apart.’


Is this the tip of the broken twig or wing? Left or right? I found this pic searching for "left wing MH17". Two or three bullets?



The youtube video of MH17


Seems similar to this:


(just a layman)



posted on Aug, 1 2014 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: maghun

That is shrapnel impact. There is no way in hell, or anywhere else, that this bullet leaves tiny holes like that.

And the National crash is absolutely nothing like this.



posted on Aug, 2 2014 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: Zaphod58


Yeah, lol, 30mm is about an inch and a quarter in diameter. I still maintain that it is stupid for a fighter to close on another plane to shoot them down with cannon fire rather than just fire and forget a missile. There is a certain lack of logic in that action. You could fire the missile from 50 miles away...to use the cannon you have to close within feet. Not to mention that if a fighter closed on a passenger plane a) they would have no excuse for shooting it down (didn't know it was a passenger plane?) and b) the kill would not be instantaneous which would allow the pilot (of MH-17) time to radio in what was going on, not to mention passengers using their phones.

No logic to that scenario whatsoever.

edit on 2-8-2014 by bbracken677 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 3 2014 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: R_Clark


The damage seen in the photo looks like "shrapnel" damage, not 30mm bullets (in my opinion). Being that it was struck at about 32,000 feet, that altitude would make it out of range for ground fired missiles, so it could have been a missile fired from a fighter jet.

The bodies probably showed shrapnel damage, so were taken away or dismembered.

edit on 8/3/2014 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 3 2014 @ 04:29 PM
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originally posted by: Gianfar
The damage seen in the photo looks like "shrapnel" damage, not 30mm bullets (in my opinion). Being that it was struck at about 32,000 feet, that altitude would make it out of range for ground fired missiles, so it could have been a missile fired from a fighter jet.



In what world is that?

SA-2 (Shot down a U-2 at 60,000 feet)
SA-4
SA-11 (Admitted to have been captured by rebels in the Ukraine)
SA-17


That's just four that have the range to hit 32,000 feet, and one of those the rebels admit to having captured, as well as reports that Russia may have given them at least one, possibly more.

They also use proximity fusing, and a continuous rod warhead.


Also, Gianfar, check your private messages.



posted on Aug, 3 2014 @ 04:36 PM
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a reply to: Gianfar

Your statement is only true if you are referring to shoulder fired SAMs, but not to the 15 ft missiles the BUK fires. They do have the wherewithal to reach a plane at that altitude and higher.



posted on Aug, 3 2014 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

You're right. The BUK SA-17 and SA-11 can hit targets as much as 72,000 ft. Nice work.
edit on 3-8-2014 by Gianfar because: grammar



posted on Aug, 3 2014 @ 05:10 PM
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a reply to: Gianfar

SAM systems have been deadly to a number of aircraft that I've studied, and many that my father worked on during Vietnam. He still has quite a few friends that are missing after not coming home from missions. He only recently found out what happened to one of his crews.



posted on Aug, 3 2014 @ 05:18 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Gianfar

SAM systems have been deadly to a number of aircraft that I've studied, and many that my father worked on during Vietnam. He still has quite a few friends that are missing after not coming home from missions. He only recently found out what happened to one of his crews.


There is allot of information about that war still being held from the public. I've had some interesting chats with several SF guys over the years, who successfully ran top secret missions during the Vietnam war. All CIA missions. We can PM.



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 06:59 AM
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a reply to: bbracken677

Take into consideration:


This scatter-shot event occurred quickly, in less than a second:

- MH17 is flying at about 500 mph, or 700 feet per second.

- A Buk Sam-11 rocket rises at Mach 6 or about 4,600 mph or 6,700 feet per second.

- After the warhead explodes, the balls of shrapnel rapidly accelerate to several thousand mph, in addition to missile speed.

- The combination of approaching weapon and target speeds, even at that angle of intersection, is more than 10,0000 feet per sec. plus 6,700 feet per sec., or 11K mph.

- A Boeing-777 is 242 feet (74 meters) in length, meaning MH17 would have passed through the barrage in less than a 50th of a second. The hull would be riddled with punctures and grooves from fore to aft.

In short, it is impossible at such high speed for the grape-shot to be concentrated on only a very small part of the plane’s hull, as shown in the NY Times photos. What then could have caused the punctures?


More details on rense.com

Malaysian Air Probes Are Led By Perpetrators Of The Lockerbie Cover-up



posted on Aug, 4 2014 @ 07:24 AM
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a reply to: maghun

Wow, that was a remarkably uninformed read. The missile fusing system takes into account the closing speed of both the target and the missile, and detonates at the opportune moment. Some shrapnel will be found on the wings, as it was, but the majority of it will be near the nose, which it was. Hell according to that a SAM can't even shoot down a plane at all because the damage would be too spread out.

I notice you are still avoiding the tiny hole versus large canon shell issue. How does a round that is the length of my forearm before firing leave such tiny little holes in an unarmored aircraft?
edit on 8/4/2014 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



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