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Sola fide: Quick question to those who believe in salvation by faith alone

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posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:26 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

No one stops sinning completely no matter how hard they try. It doesn't matter what the sin is.
What does it matter whether it's adultery, or lying, or murdering, or covetousness? et al
Every man is guilty of sin every single day


David in the Bible was saved. He commited adultery and murder.
Solomon commited adultery, he had hundreds of wives.
Lot was a sinful, wicked man, who offered his daughters up to the gang outside his house.

Are you suggesting that when a person is "saved" they just completely stop sinning?
If not, where exactly is the line drawn? How many sins can we pile up before we go over that line?
edit on 30-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:35 PM
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a reply to: graphuto


No one stops sinning completely no matter how hard they try. It doesn't matter what the sin is.

So sin doesn't matter?

Paul disagrees with you:


What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

..

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Romans 6:1-2; 15-16 NIV)

Your works, your behaviour… it matters.

ETA:

Are you suggesting that when a person is "saved" they just completely stop sinning?

No, of course not. Though we can have a discussion of sanctification, which is both a Methodist and Catholic belief, at another time. It's possible, but it's not easy.


If not, where exactly is the line drawn? How many sins can we pile up before we go over that line?

Remember, I'm Catholic. We're pretty much always "over that line", though we differentiate between venial sin (which messes up our relationship to God) and mortal sin (which ends our relationship with God.)


edit on 30-7-2014 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:37 PM
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David in the Bible was saved. He commited adultery and murder.
Solomon commited adultery, he had hundreds of wives.
Lot was a sinful, wicked man, who offered his daughters up to the gang outside his house.

Are you suggesting that when a person is "saved" they just completely stop sinning?
If not, where exactly is the line drawn? How many sins can we pile up before we go over that line?a reply to: adjensen



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

See my response in the ETA above yours



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 10:50 PM
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a reply to: adjensen

So which sins then would END your relationship with God?

I also want to point out that Paul was preaching to believers in the scripture you quoted. They already believed in Jesus. They were in "church" and he was preaching to them how they ought to behave. It doesn't imply anything about salvation.



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:01 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
How is "doeth the will of my Father" not works?
Notice the verse before this says, "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Also notice the end of the part that you quoted, "ye that work iniquity."
So it is all about works.
The Bible doesn't talk about a life of faith that is disconnected from works.



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:06 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

The will of the Father is that we believe on Jesus Christ.



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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a reply to: graphuto


They were in "church" and he was preaching to them how they ought to behave. It doesn't imply anything about salvation.

Yes, but it speaks to behaviour. If we are saved by faith, and faith alone, you couldn't lose salvation by your behaviour, while Paul clearly thinks that you can.


So which sins then would END your relationship with God?

Let me just toss that over to: Mortal versus Venial Sin. If you die in a state of mortal sin (ie: the serial killer or adulterer in my previous examples,) you go to hell. If you are not in a state of mortal sin, you do not. Sola fide dictates that you do not go to hell, no matter what your behaviour is.

One easy way to look at it is this: are there Christians in hell?

Sola fide? Nope.

Catholic? While we're not supposed to judge, because of the infinite mercy of God, heck yes. Those Catholic priests and Protestant pastors that abused kids and who passed away without true repentance? Roasting…



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:10 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

No one stops sinning completely no matter how hard they try. It doesn't matter what the sin is.
You are saying the Bible is a lie and you are God to reverse what has been ordained.
Was Jesus lying when he told people to go and sin no more?
Was the writer of 1 John lying when he said there were different kinds of sin?
Was Paul lying when he said that sinners will not enter heaven.
Was Jesus lying when he said in the verses in Matthew 7 that you quoted, that workers of iniquity will not enter the kingdom?


edit on 30-7-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:16 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

David in the Bible was saved. He commited adultery and murder.
Solomon commited adultery, he had hundreds of wives.
They were not saved as Christians are.
They did not have the holy spirit that allows a person to follow the Law of Faith.
Jesus, through his sacrifice as a person of the same flesh as sinful people, made the coming of that spirit of righteousness possible.



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:20 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

So which sins then would END your relationship with God?
What sins do you commit that you think God doesn't care about?



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:24 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

The will of the Father is that we believe on Jesus Christ.
That would be one thing.
Do you think it ends there?
If you do, then you would be wrong.
Jesus told people that your righteousness must be greater than that of the Pharisees.
Do you believe in Jesus when he said that, or do you think that you have to only believe that there was a person named Jesus?



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 11:49 PM
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Just a general statement here

You people who believe in this "faith alone" idea need to read the gospels...

seriously...

One can not come to that conclusion through any of the four(5?) books...


edit on 31-7-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 05:13 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: graphuto

No one stops sinning completely no matter how hard they try. It doesn't matter what the sin is.
You are saying the Bible is a lie and you are God to reverse what has been ordained.
Was Jesus lying when he told people to go and sin no more?
Was the writer of 1 John lying when he said there were different kinds of sin?
Was Paul lying when he said that sinners will not enter heaven.
Was Jesus lying when he said in the verses in Matthew 7 that you quoted, that workers of iniquity will not enter the kingdom?



You're twisting my words. I said that people don't stop sinning. They can't.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Jesus wasn't lying when he told them to go and sin no more. How can you lie when giving someone a command?
I never said that there weren't different kinds of sin.
Obviously there are, or else there wouldn't be different punishments lined out in the OT.

No Jesus wasn't lying when he said that workers of inequity won't enter into heaven. These are the people that think they can work their way to heaven. They can't.


Do you believe in Jesus when he said that, or do you think that you have to only believe that there was a person named Jesus?


Don't be ridiculous.


originally posted by: jmdewey60
What sins do you commit that you think God doesn't care about?

No one answered my question yet. Which sins can one commit to END their relationship with God?
Scriptural answer please, as I don't recognize the "authority" of the "catholic catechism".

God cares about all of your sins. Telling a LIE will land you in hell if you don't have faith in God and Jesus.
Which is the whole point of "salvation by faith alone." You can be the best person you can possibly be, yet still commit at LEAST one sin a day.



Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


Having begun in the Spirit (Faith on Jesus), are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Work your way to heaven)


edit on 31-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 05:19 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
Just a general statement here

You people who believe in this "faith alone" idea need to read the gospels...

seriously...

One can not come to that conclusion through any of the four(5?) books...



Fortunately, there are 62 other books we can use for context and reference.
edit on 31-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 05:22 PM
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Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

edit on 31-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 05:31 PM
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Everyone seems to be missing my point here.
Let's say you CAN work your way to heaven.

How does it work?
How many sins can you commit?
Do you have to ask forgiveness for every single sin every single time?

What if someone cleans up their entire life and commits NO outward sins, only sins in their mind/heart. They're a really good person, feeding the poor, helping the sick, etc. etc.

Let's say they were living on a "clean slate" for the day. i.e. - They prayed for forgiveness of the previous day's sins and have not yet committed any today. Then, let's say that that person sees a pretty lady and commits adultery in their heart, and then gets hit by a car and dies. What happens to him?



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 05:37 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
Jesus told people that your righteousness must be greater than that of the Pharisees.


Not too tough, considering that the Pharisees didn't really believe in God or Jesus, and were trying to work their way to heaven.
Jesus made it blatantly clear that the Pharisees were wicked, ungodly people.


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.

42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

edit on 31-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 06:37 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Jesus is making a technical point here, that in the process of doing the physical things of the Law, they did not have true spiritual insight.

Jesus isn't saying that they were not being righteous, but that to be truly locked into the truth of things, it takes something beyond just the written things, otherwise you may be missing the point of some of those things they were reading.

The real point is that the Law had a way of making people suspicious of prophecy, and people making claims concerning prophecy, and felt safer just going with things that had become traditional, rather than going with something new.


edit on 31-7-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2014 @ 06:51 PM
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a reply to: graphuto

Then, let's say that that person sees a pretty lady and commits adultery in their heart, and then gets hit by a car and dies. What happens to him?
If you were seeking out that one particular woman to further your plans to take possession of her (when you knew she was married to someone else), then you would be held as guilty of the sin of adultery.

If you just saw a random person on your ordinary route to work, and noticed her attractiveness, then that one thing would not in itself send you to hell.

Righteous people don't just have random acts of weakness to where they instantaneously revert to a totally degenerate behavior.



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