Sola fide: Quick question to those who believe in salvation by faith alone

a reply to: graphuto

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gift, free gift. A gift is a gift. A gift is free.

The word translated here as "saved" is in the Greek, sózó, which is in this verse in the Perfect, Passive, Participle, Nominative, Plural form.
That means , we, as a group, the church, were ushered into the congregation of the saved, by a historical event in the past, which was basically Jesus' actions that created this situation where that inclusion was possible.
Jesus did that, making us able to be in the church, by essentially making the church.
This is something built by Jesus, and not by the people who happen to be in the church.

The Greek word here translated as "gift" is really grace, so it is saying that an allowance was made that made it possible to enter in as members of the church, where previously we were excluded from the former congregation of the saved, Israel, by not being born into the tribe, or our not keeping so many hundreds of laws, including circumcision.

A person could stand here with a gift for me all day, but if I don't reach out and take it.....

Which in practical terms would be by being baptized, which is the recognized and prescribed step to enter the church.
That is what the verses that you quoted is talking about.
It isn't talking about "salvation" in the modern pop-culture religion sense, of a guaranteed golden ticket to the Rapture.

I've noticed that you're quite the fan of saying "this doesn't really mean this" and "that doesn't really mean that"
"Well, if you take it back to the Greek..."
This implies that not just anyone can read the Word of God and understand the Gospel if they just believe what the words say. How does that make sense?

The way that you describe it, it wouldn't.
I think anyone who can read can look at an interlinear like
biblehub.com...
and work it out. It does help a lot to do it every day, and then it gets easier over time.
You can also download MP3 files of the text being read in the Greek, at
www.helding.net...

Words mean what they mean, and I trust that God has the power to preserve his Word.

They meant what they meant by the person originally writing it, which was a long time ago and in a language other than English.
The Greek text is preserved.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. You've got a bizarre exegesis of a host of scripture.

I can provide multiple, clear statement scriptures that say "believe, believe, believe"

You can only tell us to take it back to a language that was spoken 2000 years ago and we're to just take your word for it, that what you're saying is right.

I think I'd rather take the words of the host of top scholars at the time, some of whom spoke upwards of 15 languages, who prayed to God for 3 years or so before even beginning, that translated the Bible into English. Which from that work has been translated to hundreds of other languages. When you line them all up, they all mean the same thing. So don't say that we have to "take it back to the Greek"
It was correctly translated.

How about those people between say.. the late 1500's till now, who didn't have a Greek interlinear to go by? They're just S.O.L.?

a reply to: graphuto

I can provide multiple, clear statement scriptures that say "believe, believe, believe"

Go ahead and cite them for us, and I would be happy to explain them for you.

You can only tell us to take it back to a language that was spoken 2000 years ago and we're to just take your word for it, that what you're saying is right.

You can look at the exact same thing that I am looking at, so it isn't anything secret, plus we have DISRAELI here on this forum that knows Greek better than I do, who could totally bust me if I was lying about it.

How about those people between say.. the late 1500's till now, who didn't have a Greek interlinear to go by? They're just S.O.L.?

People are not saved by correct theology, so they are not necessarily condemned to hell for not having a good translation.
But there is no excuse for perpetuating bad interpretations when I am pointing out the errors, that can relatively easily be verified.

a reply to: jmdewey60

originally posted by: jmdewey60
People are not saved by correct theology, so they are not necessarily condemned to hell for not having a good translation.

What do you mean? They're saved by faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Which has to have some sort of definition. That's theology. In our entire conversation here about "salvation by faith or works" your only defense is the translation. I'm sure you could get into James, and provide a few questions and hard to understand verses to try and confuse people, but you can't discount the multiple delcarations that it's by faith. You're aiming to convince everyone here that the plain statements of the scripture are wrong, and that we need to learn some foreign language to understand the Bible.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The anointing of the Holy Spirit. Which one receives when they put their full trust and faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation.

I'm not going to argue with you any further. I don't need for you to explain to me what is stated in plain English. I just needed to throw my 2 cents in for the people you may be leading astray.

Here are just a small handful of the clear statement scriptures that say "believe"
Go ahead and explain away every single one of those verses, if you wish, and then I'll give you 20 more.

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

John 5:47
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


You're of the Latter Day Saints denomination, correct? I seem to remember you saying that somewhere.

a reply to: graphuto

You're aiming to convince everyone here that the plain statements of the scripture are wrong, and that we need to learn some foreign language to understand the Bible.

That's the problem with "just me and my Bible" types (not saying that's what you are, of course,) they are hostage to a translation out of a language that is not the easiest language to translate out of. Any well footnoted Bible will have loads of "some translations read _______" or "_______ would be another possible translation" entries, because some bits of Greek and Hebrew will mean different things to different readers.

If I thought that my eternal salvation hung on a book (which I do not believe,) I'd be darn certain that I had the best version of said book, which would mean a Greek version from 1600 years ago. You can read it here: Codex Sinaiticus Yes, it is a lot of work to learn Greek and read a handwritten book from the Fifth Century, but if your salvation depends on it, seems like it would be in your best interests, no?

a reply to: adjensen

I guess, but that just kinda takes me back to the point I made earlier. The 1611 KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus and few of the other early English translations (William Tyndale's, Jean Wycliffe's, the Geneva Bible, among others)

This "translation to end all translations" (for a while at least) was the result of the combined effort of about fifty scholars. They took into consideration: The Tyndale New Testament, The Coverdale Bible, The Matthews Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, and even the Rheims New Testament. The great revision of the Bishop's Bible had begun. From 1605 to 1606 the scholars engaged in private research. From 1607 to 1609 the work was assembled. In 1610 the work went to press, and in 1611 the first of the huge (16 inch tall) pulpit folios known today as "The 1611 King James Bible"

Since then it's been translated into 100's of languages and owned read by hundreds and hundreds of millions, if not BILLIONS of people. It's the preserved, inspired Word of God.

a reply to: graphuto

You're of the Latter Day Saints denomination, correct? I seem to remember you saying that somewhere

Seventh Day Adventist, who are traditionally supporters of righteousness according to God's law, living a life without sin. Some members have been infected by Free Grace cult beliefs so kind of poo-poo the idea of perfection. I was sucked into this sort of Reformation revisionism back in the Seventies, but luckily got fee of those errors by just plain studying of the Bible.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is Paul using rhetoric.
What he is saying is that if you have a contract, and you do work, then that is pay, as what was agreed upon by the contract, and is not a gift.
So Paul is making an analogy of righteousness according to the old covenant.
Paul is extolling the superiority of having recognition of being righteous without such a contract, but by following the Law of Faith.
He is not talking about lounging about resting on the surety of being called righteous without actually being righteous.
He is talking about another kind of righteousness that is not all spelled out in a book with hundreds of laws to cover every aspect of your life.

All the other verses that you quoted are from the gospels, so the point is something that is looked at in hindsight, after it was all over, that the Jews, as in the leadership within that religious system, did not believe in him.
So those things are put in there as an indictment of the Jews, and justification for what ended up happening to them, which was the destruction of that system as it existed in the time of Jesus.

a reply to: graphuto

It's the preserved, inspired Word of God.

It's also riddled with translation errors. King James Version Bible Errors (one site among many that pretty much say the same thing -- if you compare KJV with the Greek, Hebrew and Latin sources, they don't match up.)

Again, I don't have the connection to the Bible that the Sola scriptura crowd has (even when I was a Protestant, I didn't believe in Sola scriptura, I think it's the weakest of the three,) but if I did, I'd want to use that Fifth Century version I gave you the link to earlier, because it is the edition that is most likely to be the "preserved, inspired Word of God."

a reply to: graphuto

The 1611 KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus and few of the other early English translations . . .

"Textus Receptus" was a sales gimmick by a book printer.
There was not copyright laws being enforced back then, when printing was invented, so as soon as someone would print a book, other printers would just copy it and sell their own copies.
In order to suck customers into buying that one printer's version of the Greek NT text by Erasmus, he re-titled it as "Textus Receptus", as if this was a special edition (which it wasn't, really).
Erasmus was given a commission to come up with a Greek NT text, and he didn't have one, so he sent out procurers to get some manuscripts.
He went through them and circled the parts to set type to, to have a complete NT, except he made some himself that was missing, by translating Latin versions into Greek.
So what got printed was whatever Greek text was the easiest to get ahold of on the open market, in a hurry.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Rex282

The FACT is the creator God WILL save/deliver ALL OF MANKIND from "hades"…

If that was the case, then don't you think it is odd that the Bible doesn't mention it?

Jim please continue to post your rhetoric.You are a shinning example of what I am talking about because you search the scriptures thinking that in them you have life yet FAIL to come to Yahoshua so you can d be delivered.
The fact is it only takes the reason of truth to understand that it is the creator Gods nature to deliver ALL of man not just the "self chosen few" like yourself.The scriptures testify of it and more than "mentions" the deliverance of ALL of mankind from the realm of death and I have posted the basics many, many times .The fact is you can't understand truth and can only perceive your convoluted Jim Dewey religion that you preach that has zero good news nor truth....carry on.

originally posted by: graphuto
Yes, you're saved by grace. Through faith.

Then sola fide nor sola opus is not true because neither sum "grace" in the equation only "your" faith or works.When it clearly states both grace and faith are the creator Gods work(least any one should boast ...like billions have)

originally posted by: graphuto
Salvation is the free gift of God, but you have to accept the gift. You must open it!

That grace does NOT mean free gift.... it is the power of the creator God ..the anointing…christ.

originally posted by: graphuto
If what you say is true, there would be no need for the Bible and Jesus and the Word of God.

That is what you say and believe not me.The bible can not and does not "save" anyone.The bible is a collection of books that has been perverted into the doctrines of men just as the Talmud did the Tanahk. The bible is NOT the "word of God" as many falsely believe.Yahoshua means Yahweh(the creator God) IS salvation/deliverance. Yahoshua is the "savor" ….the Son of the creator God..the "seed" of the Father the creator God…Yahoshua is the living word of the creator God…not the bible …or even the scriptures.

The scriptures (the old and new testimony which have not been fully preserved …only what needs to be a testimony) is the testimony that testifies of Yahoshua because Yahoshua clearly stated that is it's sole purpose.

You search the scriptures thinking that IN them you have life YET you fail to come to me whom they "testify" of so I could deliver you".

The creator God can NOT be known "through" the bible or even the scriptures.The scriptures are a testimony (witness) that testifies of the Truth (Yahoshua).They are NOT the truth themselves.The creator God can only be known BY revelation from the creator God.That is a by product of grace(the power of the creator God …the anointing…christ)ALL of mankind will "know" the creator God because ALL of mankind WILL be delivered BY the creator God…not BY the bible not BY faith not By works not by ANYTHING but BY the power of the creator God.

The creator God WILL(it has not happened yet) deliver ALL of mankind from the realm of death.NONE have ANY part of that.The free gift is "receiving "LIFE" just as you "received the life you are living right now.You didn't make a "choice" to "receive" and be conceived or grow in the womb of your mother.You certainly can not make a choice to Live the LIFE the creator God is going to GIVE you to resurrect you from the realm of death.That is the height of hubris and foolishness.
ALL of mankind WILL be GIVEN "deliverance" from the realm of death to the realm of LIFE(the Kingdom of the creator God) ONLY by the POWER of the creator God and ALL of mankind will TAKE it.Not ONE will be lost.That is the Good News…not sola fide or sola opus.

a reply to: graphuto

Does it say "but he that is not baptized shall be damned"? Or "but he that is baptized not, nor believeth, shall be damned" ?

No. It says "but he that believeth not shall be damned."

But there is an unspoken third statement there -- "he that is not baptized will not be saved".

So, how can you reconcile those three? As a Protestant, I'm not sure that you can, but it fits in perfectly with Catholic theology.

Unlike Protestants, who view baptism as something of a "sign of membership" (particularly Anabaptists and anyone who practices adult baptism,) the Catholic church teaches that baptism is the sacramental infusing of grace that takes away original sin. As the Bible says, we are dead to sin through Adam, and that original sin is what condemns everyone.

So, no baptism, no salvation, that works out. But what about the question that you raise, why does it say "he that believeth not shall be damned" and leaves off the baptismal bit? Because he's talking about someone who is baptized (and thus, not condemned for original sin,) but who rejects Christ, and is damned for that, instead.

I'm not sure how a Protestant would answer your question, but that's how it works in my Catholic theology.

a reply to: jmdewey60

The law was only meant to show people their sin, because without the law how would one know what sin is? Paul makes this point in Romans 7:7 when he said "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

The entire chapter of Romans 7 speaks to how we are released from the law and bound to Christ. Some would say that he was speaking to the Jews, but the book of Romans was written to the Gentiles in Rome. Galatians 3 and Hebrews 11 is specifically about salvation by faith and not works, and Hebrews 11 makes the point that people were always saved by their faith and never by works. Contrary to what Dispensationalists believe, there is no distinction to be made between OT Israel and the NT Church. They are one in the same, because there is no Jew or Greek(Gentile) in Christ (Galatians 3:28). The words Congregation (OT) and Church (NT) are synonymous and interchangeable, which means that Moses was with the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:28). The Jews were NEVER saved by keeping the law, they were saved in the same manner that the NT Church is saved, by grace through faith.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

The entire chapter of Romans 7 speaks to how we are released from the law and bound to Christ. Some would say that he was speaking to the Jews, but the book of Romans was written to the Gentiles in Rome.

The book, Romans, was written to the Christians in Rome, in general.
Chapter 7 was written specifically to the Christians who had converted from Judaism.
It starts out saying, —for I am speaking to those who know the law—
That would be the Jews, not the gentiles.
Apparently in Paul's time, Jewish Christians were trying to go on following the Old Testament Law, at least a modified version of it that was compatible with Christianity.
The gentile Christians who Paul was writing to apparently couldn't care less about what the Jewish Christians in Rome were trying to do concerning the Old Testament Law.
Chapter 7 is half of the message that Paul is giving, about how to be righteous, starting out saying that the Law, even though it gave good advice concerning sin, did not have the power to make people sin-free because of people's natural inclination to sin that the Law cannot do anything about.
Chapter 8 continues by saying there is another Law which is the law of the spirit.
That spirit has the ability to give life while the old written Law caused death.
The spirit gives life by causing righteousness in the person, and therefore the life that comes through the resurrection that is attained by being judged as righteous after you die.

The Jews were NEVER saved by keeping the law, they were saved in the same manner that the NT Church is saved, by grace through faith.

"Saved" in the Old Testament meant being in the congregation, where sinners were kicked out.
"Saved" in the New Testament means the same thing, being in the congregation.
You can extrapolate another "saved" from the New Testament from the mention of being lost, that logically, the opposite of lost, as in going to destruction, there would be a "saved" that meant going to Heaven, as the opposite of Hell.
The point being that being "saved" (in the sense of what is inferred in the common use of the word today) is a Christian theological invention and not what the Bible talks about.
Paul talks about there being a righteousness that is now available to us as a result of Jesus' sacrifice, that brings a spirit of righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.
That righteousness through the spirit is what "saves" us (in the Christian theological sense of the word, the ultimate salvation of those in heaven).

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Take 2 people. One that believes that salvation is by works, and another who believes that salvation is by faith.

Someone who believes by faith would never be in that position before Jesus, trying to justify themselves by the works that they did (prophesied in thy name, cast out devils, done many wonderful works)

They'd simply say "but you told us over and over and over again that we're saved by faith!"
"You told us that your Words are truth and life!"
"You told us that You cannot lie!"

The person who thinks they could work their way to heaven though, you could definitely see them in that position before God.

a reply to: adjensen

I don't see a third, unspoken statement there, nor do I believe that there is one intended...

You've built an entire post and argument about something that you added.

a reply to: graphuto

One that believes that salvation is by works, and another who believes that salvation is by faith.

I am not aware of anyone who believes that salvation is by works (well, I do actually know one guy, but he was nuts and is no longer posting at ATS, lol.)

What the Catholic and Orthodox churches teach is that we are saved by faith, but not by faith alone. We do play a role in salvation -- not in the grace that actually saves us, but in the process. When I was a Methodist, I also believed that, but it was couched in Arminianism, because I see that choice of accepting Christ's salvation as being a "work".

Let's say that we have a serial killer, who murders one person every week. For whatever reason, he becomes a Christian, accepts Christ into his life, has faith in his salvation, but… continues to kill one person a week.

Will he be saved? If you think that salvation is by faith, and faith alone, the answer would have to be "yes". Anything else, and you're teetering into the Catholic "saved by faith, but not faith alone."

a reply to: graphuto

I don't see a third, unspoken statement there, nor do I believe that there is one intended…

Of course there is.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16 NIV)

If whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, then by inference whoever does not have those two traits will not be saved. If baptism had nothing to do with it, Jesus would have said "whoever believes will be saved." He didn't, he put baptism in there, so baptism plays a role in salvation, and anyone who is not baptized will not be saved.

Go back and re-read my post in that light.

a reply to: adjensen

People like to deal in hypotheticals for the sake of argument.
I say, 'show me this person.'

I can turn your situation around on you in the same way, using a hypothetical.
Suppose someone is very ill or infirm, and can't physically get baptized?
How about a child that has reached the age of understanding and accountability, and has believed on Jesus in faith, but gets shot and killed before he gets baptized?

I think it takes a certain type of sick, warped individual to serial kill a person a week.
I'd say that a person like that has been given over to a reprobate mind, and this hypothetical man simply couldn't exist.

If such a one DOES exist, then I trust God to judge righteous judgement.

a reply to: graphuto

Well, sometimes hyperbole works, sometimes it doesn't, lol.

Okay, substitute adultery. Guy sleeps with his secretary once a week, blah, blah, blah.

Is he saved anyway?

Reference: Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart