It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Sola fide: Quick question to those who believe in salvation by faith alone

page: 3
7
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 03:03 PM
link   
a reply to: the2ofusr1

I can't watch videos during the day, but I went and scanned the wikipedia page on Molinism and it looks interesting, thanks for the pointer!




posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 04:33 PM
link   
Faith is a ladder that can connect you with the son. What you do and how you interact when you get there is up to you. The ladder does not discrininate.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 05:43 PM
link   
a reply to: adjensen

OP,

I suggest you look into something people call Romans road to salvation. Believing God and Christ exist is not all you have to do. There must be a conversation between you and God, and you must know that you are a sinner and that only through Jesus can you be saved and you must accept that sacrifice not only believe it occurred .



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 06:35 PM
link   
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

. . . you must accept that sacrifice not only believe it . . .
What is the difference between believing in it, and "accepting" it?



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:04 PM
link   
a reply to: jmdewey60

Satan knows and believes Jesus died for sins of the world, he just rejects Him. A person must accept Jesus into their heart in order to be born-again. Satanist have not accepted Jesus into their life as their lord and savior so I do not see how they could possibly be forgiven for their sins.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:36 PM
link   
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

A person must accept Jesus into their heart in order to be born-again.
Jesus said that "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
So it is not something that a person can force, it happens on its own accord.
I asked what "accept" means as being different from believe, and you answer by saying that you accept it into your heart.
Back when the New Testament was written, that was the place of your "mind", so it wouldn't be any different than believing.
I think your "Road of Romans" is a way to make belief, a work.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:48 PM
link   
a reply to: adjensen

You kind of answered your own question. There is a big difference, an eternal difference, between believing in Christ as the only one mighty enough to save you from hell, and believing in God. Yes, Jesus Christ IS God, however many people believe in God, and yet they do not believe in Jesus Christ, or if they do, they believe in an unbiblical false Christ (Catholics, Mormons, Modalists, Jehovah's Witnesses, et al..) Satan himself believes in God... the New Testament book of James even says in James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

It isn't even enough to have an intellectual understanding of the Gospel. Many Atheists can articulate the Gospel as it is written, however they do not believe it, therefore they are not justified before God. Many people will say the following nonsense..."Well, I believe that Jesus was a good teacher, but He isn't God." Let's examine that closer. If Jesus isn't God, then the things He said were that of a mad man. If He isn't God, then He is crazy and delusional because of saying things like "I have overcome the world" (John 16:33) "I have food to eat that you know nothing about" (John 4) "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins" (John 8). I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (Revelation 22) You get the idea... there are hundreds of other examples. No sane man could make these claims, unless of course that sane man was indeed God.

As far as salvation goes, it is by grace through faith and nothing else. Jesus Christ Himself, as well as Peter, Paul, and others hammered this point home over and over again. The Catholic Church teaches that one must not only believe on Jesus Christ as Savior, but they must also follow the Church sacraments. This is a works based, false Gospel. Right before Jesus Christ died on the cross, He said the greatest three words in the history of the world, in John 19:30 He said "it is finished". That means exactly what it says.. IT IS FINISHED. That means there is nothing left to do, because He did it all. To say that one must do something else in order to be saved is to say that what Jesus did wasn't good enough, or that Jesus isn't strong or mighty enough to save you, and that YOU need to do more. Nonsense! Jesus Christ said "it is finished", and all that is left for you and me to do is to believe on Him... that He is who He says He is, and that He did what the Gospel says He did. All religions on this Earth are a creation of man, to serve man. The Catholic Church is the largest of these man made religions. There is only one religion that is acceptable to God... from James 1:27 "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Any religion that is more or less than that is not of God and is a false religion created by man.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 07:56 PM
link   
a reply to: OptimusSubprime

As far as salvation goes, it is by grace through faith and nothing else.
This was comparing entrance into the former congregation of the saved, Israel, with the current congregation of the saved, the church, one by subscribing to hundreds of laws including circumcision, and the other by believing in Jesus.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 08:19 PM
link   

originally posted by: adjensen
As many of you know, I am a Protestant-leaning Catholic, so I still dabble a bit in the Solas.

I came across a question on a Traditionalist Catholic blog this morning, though, that has me scratching my head.

If a person is saved solely through their belief in Christ, does that mean that Satanists will be saved? They believe in God, they just don't like him very much.


Seems to be a stumbling block for those who do not spend any time in the scriptures...The bible interprets itself contrary to the belief of some religions...Belief on Jesus Christ is explained further as trust...

Rom_15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Not only do we believe in Jesus Christ, we trust that what he says is true...We trust him to be our Savior...

That can't be said of Satanists or others who only believe that Jesus exists...

Your idea comes from 'cherry-picking' scripture to make it mean what you want it to mean...



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 08:45 PM
link   
a reply to: OptimusSubprime


As far as salvation goes, it is by grace through faith and nothing else.

See, that's where the problem comes in, because grace through faith and nothing else implies that the "trust" aspect, which is an act of faith (and thus a work,) is not necessary.


Jesus Christ Himself, as well as Peter, Paul, and others hammered this point home over and over again.

Actually, that's not true. Christ teaches that baptism, a work, is necessary for salvation, and he repeatedly says that those who are not charitable in their works will be judged more harshly than those who are. I don't agree with Akragon on a lot of things, but this is one of them -- salvation by faith and faith alone comes from the writings of Paul, and even then, it required Luther's re-interpretation of the writings of Paul, because for 1500 years the church had those writings and never once concluded that what he meant was salvation through faith, and faith alone.

Today's reading from my United Methodist devotional is extremely clear on this:


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46 NIV)

I don't think that there is any way to read that other than to understand that we will be judged on our works, not on our faith.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 08:56 PM
link   
a reply to: adjensen I think you are misjudging the power of faith. Baptism is not a requirement to get into heaven. It is a way to cleanse one self in order to take charge and be a better person in this life. Ther will be a baptism for all before anyone gets there.



posted on Jul, 29 2014 @ 09:00 PM
link   
a reply to: deadeyedick


Baptism is not a requirement to get into heaven.

How do you explain this, then?


Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16 NIV)

I don't see anything there about "baptism after the fact", and unless one is a Mormon, I don't know that this would be accepted doctrine.



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 04:16 AM
link   

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Does it say "but he that is not baptized shall be damned"? Or "but he that is baptized not, nor believeth, shall be damned" ?

No. It says "but he that believeth not shall be damned."


Furthermore, John the Baptist explains this further :


Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire


So you are baptized in the Holy Spirit, by faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For the purpose of salvation, it's all by the spirit and faith. You can't work your way to heaven.

If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe and not when we get baptized, otherwise, we are not saved by faith.
The things of God are not of this world. It seems a bit ridiculous to place some fleshly rule or limitation on salvation by requiring that someone be physically baptized in water.


Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

edit on 30-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 05:11 AM
link   
Paul DID NOT write "you are saved BY faith.He clearly stated ....you are saved (delivered from hades ...the realm of death and imperception) BY grace…..through faith…and THAT faith is NOT your own nor is the WORKS because it is ALL the creator God.

The religious carnal mind has a way of perverting the simplest thing to mean nothing.The FACT is the creator God WILL save/deliver ALL OF MANKIND from "hades"…the realm of death and imperception NOT the religious nightmare fantasy "the eternal punishment of hell" by being "damned."(as in John 3:18)Damned is the translation from the Greek krino which means to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose…….it is NOT what the modern English version means.The FACT is
ALL Of mankind will enter the realm of the Kingdom of the creator God (not heaven)because that is the creator Gods "nature and character ..their essence... their NAME…Yahoshua…regardless of what ANYONE believes.

Theology is exactly what it implies "theories"of study (not fact) of God. Arminianism Calvinism,Wesleyism, Bagism..ism.ism.ism.. it is ALL vanity and foolishness.They are just "isms" …the conjectures of BS(Belief Systems) that are vanity of vanities.

The answer is NONE are going to be "saved" BY THEIR faith or THEIR works…being saved/ delivered is BY grace…..the POWER of the creator God.It is the height of hubris to "believe" you can contribute anything to it because it is a process being DONE to you not BY you in ANY form.Mankinds "part" is the subject of the process not the verb.Not one human "caused" or chose their conception.Not one human "formed" themselves by their "free will" of choice by faith and works".It is insanity to believe something like being delivered from "hades" can be "done" by any method…especially RELIGION or mysticism.

Any rational person knows they have believed some(many if they are intellectually and ethically honest) very "wrong" precepts.The history of man is full of the evidence of the multitude of wrong.Many believed the earth was the center of the universe while some that "knew" that it wasn't were scoffed at(and some executed) because it went against false belief.The salvation of mankind by a "method" of faith or works or ..whatever …is one of the biggest lies believed by billions (the eternal punishment of hell being #1).

The motives behind such doctrines are easily ferreted out.It is ALWAYS about the "judging"(damning) the "way" someone "acts".The faithers believe it is FAITH that saves them from from HELL and/or gets them into "heaven"and "their" faith makes them"not sin" and that's why they are "good" and so "their God" approves of them.The do do workers judge the faithers are "all talk" and no "do do" and but they are do gooders doing do do good and 'their "God approves of them…and it's all right there..in the book…the parts they "choose" to believe in the "way" they choose to believe with their God "given" free will…all complete foolishness.

Not only is NONE of that true and reasonable NONE of it is even in the "book" it is ONLY what they "believe".The scriptures testify VERY clearly Yahoshua (the creator God IS salvation/deliverance) IS the savor..of ALL of mankind….not just for believing faithers or do do gooders workers or the followers/believers of Calvin or Arminius or in Wesley,Luther,the Pope,Billy Graham,Gahndi,Buddha,John Lennon etc etc ad nauseum…period… end of book…that's all she wrote.

The Good News is simple…and GOOD ..VERY VERY GOOD.You WILL be delivered from the hades…realm of death that you ALL will be in VERY, VERY soon(within 100 years for everyone who is alive right now).The fact is NOTHING you can do or have done will cause or alter that fact ONE bit and it is the height of foolish hubris to believe otherwise.Anyone that believes some pious do do acts or doctrines they believe in faith in does ANYTHING at all is missing everything by 13.5 billion light years. Fortunately NONE of it the condition to be delivered from hades….the realm of death..or the realm of imperception..your false Belief System religion.The creator God is MUCH,MUCH,MUCH more powerful and smarter and reasonable and merciful than all of that religious rhetoric nonsense.
………sola fide?…..ipsum mendacium


edit on 30-7-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 05:49 AM
link   
a reply to: Rex282

Yes, you're saved by grace. Through faith.
Salvation is the free gift of God, but you have to accept the gift. You must open it!

If what you say is true, there would be no need for the Bible and Jesus and the Word of God.



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 05:56 AM
link   
a reply to: graphuto

John the Baptist explains this further :

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

So you are baptized in the Holy Spirit, by faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For the purpose of salvation, it's all by the spirit and faith. You can't work your way to heaven.
You are a little selective in your quoting here. Notice how verse 8 says "produce fruit".

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

11“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John was talking about a "one who is more powerful than I" who comes after him.
Unlike how the Gospel of John that has John the Baptist say "here is who I was talking about", Matthew never identifies Jesus as being the person who John the Baptist was talking about.
"Threshing floor", according to the story of David, was the piece of property that he bought from Araunah the Jebusite, that the temple was built on.
What John the Baptist was talking about is this mysterious person, the Holy Ghost (probably the same person as the "son of man" that Jesus later mentions), who destroys the temple, 35 years later, after the Jews had opportunity to repent.

So, rather than describing how Jesus was going to save people, John the Baptist was saying that he was the warning call to the Jewish leadership that if they did not repent, then someone with the actual power to carry out the threats he was making, was coming to destroy them.
edit on 30-7-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 06:22 AM
link   
a reply to: graphuto

. . . Salvation is the free gift of God . . .
That was a bad translation in the King James translation, that was likely done that way to go with preexisting church doctrine as was the order from the king to the translators he commissioned to make the translation.
There actually is a better Greek word for "free gift" if Paul really meant to say that.
What it really means is that God has it within his ability to reward a person with salvation, upon condition, which mitigates against the idea that it is a "free gift".
So here are three reasons to not accept that phrase the way that it is often put into use.

As an anecdote, I had someone arguing with me in church about his "free grace" version of salvation, so he pulls this as a trump card, and rather than quoting or even just citing the verse, he asks me if the Bible said that salvation was a "free gift". I was used to reading the literal Greek translation, so said "No".
He refused to talk to me after that, deciding in his own mind that I was a liar.
Later I realized that the King James actually says that, and this dude was one of these "King James only" nut cases, and didn't realize that he was only right by ignoring the Greek.

Edit to add: after checking just now, seems it doesn't say it that way, "free gift", in Romans 6:23, in the King James Version, so apparently he was willing to make an exception from his normal "King James only" to go with the version that fit his personal philosophy.
The King James does say "free gift" in Romans 5:16, but it is talking about the "gift of righteousness".
It could be that people make a creative synthesis to merge the two verses together, creating a new home-made "verse" to justify a Free Grace philosophy.
So, in my little story, the person who is the subject of it rejected me as a person because I did not believe in a verse that he just made up in his own imagination.
He never did actually crack open his Bible to show me where there was a verse that said what he had created in his mind as a test if someone was "the devil" or not.
edit on 30-7-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 06:58 AM
link   
a reply to: Rex282

The FACT is the creator God WILL save/deliver ALL OF MANKIND from "hades"…
If that was the case, then don't you think it is odd that the Bible doesn't mention it?


edit on 30-7-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 08:14 AM
link   
a reply to: graphuto

Salvation is the free gift of God, but you have to accept the gift. You must open it!
Which would be through being baptized, right?



posted on Jul, 30 2014 @ 08:35 AM
link   
a reply to: jmdewey60


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Gift, free gift. A gift is a gift. A gift is free. One still must accept this gift.

In this case, to accept this gift, you must believe on Jesus Christ.
That's the condition. Believe.

A person could stand here with a gift for me all day, but if I don't reach out and take it.....


I've noticed that you're quite the fan of saying "this doesn't really mean this" and "that doesn't really mean that"
"Well, if you take it back to the Greek..."
This implies that not just anyone can read the Word of God and understand the Gospel if they just believe what the words say. How does that make sense?



1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Words mean what they mean, and I trust that God has the power to preserve his Word.

edit on 30-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-7-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)




top topics



 
7
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join