Sola fide: Quick question to those who believe in salvation by faith alone

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: adjensen

I don't understand how anyone can get "faith alone" from the gospels... or anything outside of Pauls writing in the NT

I would say the so called "Satanist" that is humble and giving all his life has a better chance at "salvation" then the Christian who turns his back on others in need

Because true faith, the kind that engenders trust as has been references leads you to live as Christ did which is where the works come from. Faith first leads to works because it engenders the desire to be and do good. Otherwise, your works are empty. If you are doing works to buy your way to salvation, you are doing them for yourself - empty.

a reply to: adjensen

And I would argue that if God called that person and he was saved, truly saved, he wouldn't be a Satanist anymore. It changes you.

a reply to: DISRAELI

As Arminians we think we choose an attitude of trust in God.
The Calvinist thinks that God chooses to give us an attitude of trust in God.

Yes, I can see that from the Arminian position, but I still don't see it in Calvinism, because the implication is that there are some people that Christ cannot save, which Calvin opposed, believing that there were people that he would not save, but no one that he could not.

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice. Our justification does not rest on any merit to be found in us, nor upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, nor that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church. (Source)

When I read that, all I see is faith in God, which would result in trust in God, but the trust is secondary to "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone." If we want to say that "trust in God" is required for salvation, no problem, and the Satanists are off the hook, but then it is no longer a matter of Sola fide, because trusting is an act, a work.

a reply to: ketsuko

So this whole idea is based on the soul of a man as currency... Just like the idea that Jesus "paid for your sins"...

Most normal people don't do good deeds because they're trying to buy their way into heaven... they do it because its right to help others...

IF Faith leads to works, you'd see works coming from every Christian, but that's just not the case...

And don't tell me they don't truly believe either...

Good deeds come from the heart... Not from Faith

a reply to: Akragon

That's because I don't think you understand exactly what is meant when it is said. Most people who do works do so out of some aspect of selfishness which makes those works empty. They have to, they want others to see how good they are, they want to be saved, etc.

How many do them out of pure charity? And I am not talking only about acknowledged Christians, but anyone. Even Christians do these things out of an aspect of selfishness many times. Very few of us ever do what works because we think solely of the ones being served.

a reply to: ketsuko

I believe in Satan as probably do you. Does that make us Satanists?

You don't want to hear what I believe about Satan, trust me, I'm quite the heretic, lol.

But to address your question, no it doesn't, but I didn't say that belief in Christ made Satanists Christian, I asked if it meant that they would be saved.

a reply to: Akragon

And I'd argue most people who call themselves Christian don't have faith not truly, and I'd also argue that works is a broad category. It's not just who you see at the soup kitchen. It's who helps the little old lady carry out her groceries or get items off the top shelf, it's who stops to help change a tire or give a ride, it's all kinds of things to help anyone and everyone.

Faith changes the heart. How can you have faith and be hard-hearted?

a reply to: adjensen

And I was pointing out that you are playing fast and loose with the term "belief."

a reply to: ketsuko

Faith alone is in fact selfish...

You have that faith because you want to be saved, or you fear what might happen if you're not

As I've said many times before... Atheists will do good deeds not because they fear or believe that God is watching them... they do it out of compassion and empathy for the less fortunate.... which is selfless

Jesus said nothing about Faith alone... that is a doctrine of Paul which his contemporaries spoke against

And in the cases you'll read about in the gospels where Jesus said because of your faith I will do this... remember Jesus knew what was in all mens hearts...

a reply to: Akragon

Most normal people don't do good deeds because they're trying to buy their way into heaven… they do it because its right to help others…

That's what the Calvinist Doctrine of Absolute Depravity is reflective of -- yes, everything that we do, no matter how gracious or noble, is ultimately done for selfish reasons and is, thus utterly repugnant to God. Works cannot contribute to salvation, because of their selfish nature, all they do is make God more and more disgusted with us.

This is one of the reasons that I am not a Calvinist, though I will agree that there is some logic to the doctrine.

a reply to: ketsuko

How can you have faith and be hard-hearted?

Apparently its quite easy...

You should read the passage where Jesus said "not everyone who cries out Lord Lord" will be saved...

a reply to: ketsuko

You can't ever completely remove oneself from "their works", so there will always be some form of selfishness to them. You can't separate the actions one takes from themselves, it's not possible, it is they who are doing those actions. Nothing anyone ever does can be totally selfless in the way you're describing it. Saying that someone didn't act selflessly enough or that they did something good but for selfish reasons is just another sneaky way to judge other people and their actions and deny them something. In this case their salvation, which is pretty sick minded.

a reply to: adjensen

yes, everything that we do, no matter how gracious or noble, is ultimately done for selfish reasons and is, thus utterly repugnant to God.

this is more of Pauls doctrine....

Works are nothing but filthy rags to God.... I don't believe it for a second...

What is in a mans hearts is what counts...

IF you read the passage where Jesus asks who is your neighbour? You can see what im saying...

originally posted by: adjensen
When I read that, all I see is faith in God, which would result in trust in God, but the trust is secondary to "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone." If we want to say that "trust in God" is required for salvation, no problem, and the Satanists are off the hook, but then it is no longer a matter of Sola fide, because trusting is an act, a work.

It isn't easy to be spokesman for a position I don't actually hold, but I'll have a go.
On the OP issue of whether Satanists have saving faith; OK, the Calvinist may not see the act of trust as primary cause of salvation. But as far as I can tell, he still sees that attitude of trust as part of the experience of salvation. It may be given by God instead of adopted by volition, but it is there. And the Satanist hasn't got it. The Calvinist might call this absence of evidence of election.

Your last clause amounts to denying that a doctrine of "election" can properly be called "sola fide". I really must duck out of that question, and leave it to people who do believe in election.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: ketsuko

How can you have faith and be hard-hearted?

Apparently its quite easy...

You should read the passage where Jesus said "not everyone who cries out Lord Lord" will be saved...

Ah, now, didn't you just get done telling me not to tell you that not all Christians have

a reply to: ketsuko

yup... That passage is the perfect example of what "faith alone" will get you...

The people in that story had Faith in him... but unfortunately they didn't listen to what he asked of them...

Thus... Faith alone is NOT the way Jesus told us

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: ketsuko

You can't ever completely remove oneself from "their works", so there will always be some form of selfishness to them. You can't separate the actions one takes from themselves, it's not possible, it is they who are doing those actions. Nothing anyone ever does can be totally selfless in the way you're describing it. Saying that someone didn't act selflessly enough or that they did something good but for selfish reasons is just another sneaky way to judge other people and their actions and deny them something. In this case their salvation, which is pretty sick minded.

I didn't say that. I was talking about the people who do things so they can tell others how much good they did or who do it so they can earn salvation. The ones who aren't doing it because it needs doing. They're thinking of themselves first and any other considerations second if at all.

It's an internal thing, and only the people doing the works (and God) know for sure. As for the rest of us, if they're doing something good, they're doing something good.

This is why you don't (can't judge), and I'm not. I'm trying to describe what takes place inside yourself. Are you doing it mainly for your benefit or more for theirs?

You may find this vid helpful . Christian/Molinist is what I can only describe as that neither being Calvinism nor Arminianism but something that may be a better way of understanding mans free will and Gods grace a reply to: adjensen

a reply to: DISRAELI

But as far as I can tell, he still sees that attitude of trust as part of the experience of salvation. It may be given by God instead of adopted by volition, but it is there. And the Satanist hasn't got it.

Yes. Reformed theology in the past has deemed the conversion experience to be critical, but it's a sign of salvation, not salvation itself, and I have seen movements to de-emphasize it in favour of an "ongoing conversion experience" (which is essentially works, lol.)

Christians generally live in one of three "salvation quandaries," tensions about whether they'll go to heaven or not -- Catholics worry as to whether they're in a state of mortal sin, Arminians worry about whether they will remain true to the faith until judgement and non-Arminians worry about whether they had a genuine conversion experience.

To that end, a Catholic would reject Sola fide in the first place, but in addition, they would say that the Satanist is in a state of mortal sin for their rejection of Christ; the Arminian would say that the Satanist has consciously rejected Christ's gift of salvation; and the Reformed would say that, barring a legitimate conversion experience, the Satanist will not be saved, no matter what he believes. But I still think that there is some wiggle room in that last one, and I'm going to have to do some reading of Luther before I can close out the question in my mind.

a reply to: ketsuko

I can agree with you on the last post.

I guess it was the following that I had trouble with.

Very few of us ever do what works because we think solely of the ones being served.

It's the above quote that I was talking about which was the issue.