MH17 Black Box Data Shows Evidence Of Missile Strike

originally posted by: DonVoigt
a reply to: Xcathdra

I wasn't attacking you I was just stating reality about the situation. Sorry if I sounded like I was attacking.

No worries im sure I took the post in the wrong matter. Trying to convey context / tone in typed form is difficult at times. Sorry

a reply to: MysterX

Ukraine does not use Su-25's anymore according to Wikipedia and the Ukraine MoD.

The top ceiling for the SU-25, is I remember right, is without a weapons load out. Put weapons on it and the ceiling drops significantly.

originally posted by: GuerillaSkill
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Maybe you can tell us,

Again, who is "us"?

I asked Cthadra.

Are you one and the same?

Nope we are not.. Secondly I dont mind him asking / challenging you on the question asked. It goes back to what I was saying before about having the same conversations over and over. The SU 25 is not in service in the Ukraine airforce anymore. It could not have reached the altitude needed armed.

a reply to: MysterX

Normally I would agree but Russian state media has already been caught editing Wikipedia page on air incidents involving Ukraine. they changed the information to state Ukraine shot down the aircraft.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I apologize as well..

That's great, can you, like me as well, admit where you were wrong?

a reply to: Xcathdra

You really think they would leave an ip trace back to the Kremlin if they did? I find that hard to believe. A setup is more likely.

Apparently the info on the SU 25 has changed. They are showing Ukraine had some recently shot down. The last I saw was they had none left after phasing them out.

originally posted by: GuerillaSkill
a reply to: Xcathdra

You really think they would leave an ip trace back to the Kremlin if they did? I find that hard to believe. A setup is more likely.

Russia under fire for editing Wikipedia page over MH17 tragedy

Yes I do think they would do that.

originally posted by: GuerillaSkill
a reply to: Xcathdra

I apologize as well..

That's great, can you, like me as well, admit where you were wrong?

Wrong on which point?

a reply to: Xcathdra

About the voice recordings that weren't mentioned in any of your articles, or the false claim that the black box can prove a missile strike, for instance.

Good save on the Su-25 not being used anymore though.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Apparently the info on the SU 25 has changed. They are showing Ukraine had some recently shot down. The last I saw was they had none left after phasing them out.

You missed the info about at least some being upgraded to Su-25m1?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: GuerillaSkill
a reply to: Xcathdra

What is the max altitude a Su-25 has been documented to fly at according to you?

It depends on the variant.

The problem with what Russia claimed is Ukraine retired their entire fleet of SU-25's. Russia did as well but mothballed them.

If that is as you claim, it was a neat trick when the patriots shot down two Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jets that had been providing air support to ground forces near Dmytrivka, if they had indeed been retired as you claim.

The Ukrainian air force has been and still is in a woeful state. Most of their pilots are not combat ready, neither is their fleet of fighters properly maintained, out of about 180 fighter jets, mostly inherited from the Soviet Union, their commander estimates only around 15% - 20% are combat ready.

With their airforce in such poor shape, they would not and patently have not retired the SU-25, as evidenced by two of them being shot down...besides scrapping operational fighters - even ageing fighters, in an airforce on the decline, would be like a hungry man throwing away a bowl of hearty stew just because it had gone cold...it doesn't happen.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Tit for tat afaics.

US accuses the Ukrainian patriots fighting the rebel government as shooting down MH17.

Then US accuses Russia of downing MH17.

And you find it odd that Russia are issuing counter charges in the wake of this irresponsible and wild finger waggling from the US?

a reply to: MysterX

Yeah I already corrected that mistake a few posts up.

Sorry

originally posted by: GuerillaSkill

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Apparently the info on the SU 25 has changed. They are showing Ukraine had some recently shot down. The last I saw was they had none left after phasing them out.

You missed the info about at least some being upgraded to Su-25m1?

i didnt miss it because I didnt see it. As i was saying we were discussing this in another thread a week or so ago and at that time the info I pulled said they were completely phased out.

That info was wrong.

a reply to: MysterX

The US already stated there was no evidence that Russia was directly involved in the shoot down.

U.S. Officials: No Evidence Of Direct Russian Link To Malaysia Plane Crash

Here for those of you wanting to know the capabilities of an SU 25...straight from the manufacturere.

www.sukhoi.org...

a reply to: DonVoigt

really? I always thought the Black box held a lot of info!

what about radar tracking and stuff like that?
Surely modern day airliners have some sort of radar. I always assumed large airliners would have flares too, or some sort of bare minimum of anti-air missiles..

how about the time the missile radar went off?
how about the time the aircraft suddenly disintegrated being compared to its exact GPS co-ordinates with wind speed, altitude and directional numbers thrown together coupled with recent satellite or done imaging.. I think there's a tonne of information that could come from the black box logs.

that's what they're used for, isn't it ?

a reply to: Xcathdra

i didnt miss it because I didnt see it. As i was saying we were discussing this in another thread a week or so ago and at that time the info I pulled said they were completely phased out. That info was wrong.

Very wrong in fact.

From the wiki page on Ukrainian Air force;

Ukrainian Air force wiki

SU-25 information.

46 delivered. Four Su-25M1 and one Su-25UBM1 were upgraded in 2010-2011.[50][51] One crashed on July 2, 2014 in Dnipropetrovsk.[52] One shot down on July 16, 2014.[53][54] Another two shot down on July 23, 2014.[55][56][57] Kiev media published that Ukraine has lost 2 SU-25 on 23-JUL-2014.[58] BBC reported that Ukraine has lost 2 SU-25 on 16-JUL-2014.[59] Ukrainian military spokesman Oleksiy Dmytrashkovsky said that rebels damaged one Su-25 on 01-JUL-2014 [60]

Very wrong in fact...this error has been repeated and used as a basis for or included in a substantial number of your posts on this subject.

Could you also be very wrong in your assertions and general opinions surrounding this entire situation?

Perhaps if you take off your patriotic blinkers, you might begin to see a little clearer into the periphery.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: MysterX

The US already stated there was no evidence that Russia was directly involved in the shoot down.

U.S. Officials: No Evidence Of Direct Russian Link To Malaysia Plane Crash

Yes, only after repeatedly claiming there was a direct link...something about 'secret' evidence that was irrefutable..that ultimately turned out to be a non-hunting canine. (couldn't make it stick with any level of credibility IOW)

But, the accusations thrown around like an ape throws its own excreta at visitors to its cage...makes one hell of a stinking mess.

So false accusations and blatant lies, without a shred of evidence, wasn't entirely wasted from a propaganda point of view.

And as well you know, the US propaganda machine find no shortage of accomplices online to spread and perpetuate these lies, even when they are based on nothing but political manoeuvring.